How come we are not discussing the terrible gender gap in UK?

[Miggsie]

I thought that the doyens of Mumsnet should really look at the report about UK dropping in gender terms.

Despite girls getting good grades at school and going to university, we still have a shocking pay gap and women in their 50's fade away in terms of senior posts.

Why?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8327895.stm

Also in the Independent.

Yes Dittany I think women are not as good at the suck up. If I could go back in time, I would do this in a major way. I'd probably be a Chief Exec by now. Women also are not as good at showing off I think, need to blow their own trumpet a bit more.

Can I ask a question? Which industries are the ones where women and men do exactly the same jobs but get different pay?

Pithy - some of the professions. Law and Accountancy certainly.

There is work place sexism. I have seen it first hand and I have seen how it affects pay also on a first hand basis.

In 1987 me and DW had job interviews at University for the City as did many of our friends. One of our male friends was interviewed by a big City bank and was told during the interview that he "would not have to go out of the office for sex" as they only employed attractive women.

The man who interviewed our friend will now be of an age where it is possible he is sitting on the Board of a bank. Our friend is of an age where he is a very senior manager. There are few women of our generation who reached senior managment levels and little wonder why with attitudes like that on display.

The attitude displayed to women in 1987 will still have an effect today as women employed then should be in senior managment positions but wil be answering to the likes of the man carrying out that interview.

in 1996 a (male) colleague was promoted because he had a wife and child to support, whereas i, a single female, could, apparently, 'manage to support myself'. this was explained to a (female) colleague by my manager. said colleague approached me and discussed making a formal complaint as she was so appalled. shortly after i did not extend the contract that was offered to me (with the suggestion that something else 'might' come up) as i knew that an organisation that condoned such logic was not likely to provide me with a contented future.
that said, when i joined the organisation in 1991, as a female i had to sign a form where i promised not to get married or have children, with the understanding that should i choose to do either of these things, my contract was likely to be terminated. so i guess i should have known what i was getting myself into. female employees had to leave formal work functions at a set time to allow the men to 'enjoy' themselves unfettered.

these days, thanks to the european court of human rights, women are not outwardly treated in this manner, and more women are stepping up to the plate and exposing these situations in a legal arena.

discussing gender in various lectures since, i am heartily sick of (generally younger) students dismissing the idea of gender inequality in the workplace existing any more recently than 1970.

recently i have been looking at employee's experiences concerning gender transition in the workplace. v interesting stuff, from both a more traditional 'gender roles' perspective (and expectations of such), as well as changes in status/ salary etc.

tis a funny old world we live in, but i'll be doing my level best to support tomorrow. better late than never, eh?

oh, (yawn) in the same place i was groped by three (male) employees at a work function (they pulled my blouse over my head so that i a-couldn't move my arms, and b- see who was doing it), held me still and groped my breasts until i fought them off and ran.

several men whinged and moaned that a female member of the team wasn't up to the job as she wasn't strong enough, but when she took a day off they claimed to be unable to do their jobs as she was the only one qualified to drive most of the heavy equipment.

just a low level, constant cultural understanding that the 'men' ran the show and women were tolerated because of some political nonsense. awful.

tbh, i think by then women were paid the same for the same job, but the gender issues go waaaaaay deeper than the pay cheque.

madwoman-
did you get the police involved?,that sounds terrible.

"unless women stop having families - which of course they won't."

Anna, don't men have some part in the families all those women seem to be somehow having? Why should there be negative workplace consequences for women who have families while the men who have the families with them don't suffer the same consequences? Society assumes mothers rather than fathers should be willing to take a financial hit in order to take care of children. This is a belief rooted in sexism, in the idea that biology is destiny.

Dittany, your last paragraph explains why the woman in the second paragraph was employed but given no leads. She would have been given leads if she had given something in return for the 'favour'. The sales manager's thinking was very obvious.

pithy - no.

somehow it all got a bit skewed in my head - in a sort of 'if i want to be a woman here, then i've got to prove i'm bigger/ stronger...' in hindsight of course, a completely ridiculous reaction, but at early twenties and with something to prove in the way of gender equality...

two days after the incident i received an anonymous apology letter, so i guess at least one of them had either developed some sort of conscience or was expecting me to call the cops and report it...

it does rather make me more likely to support the many women who decide to put up and shut up these days though - in a sort of 'you do NOT have to put up with this' type of support. unfortunately, my most recent attempt at 'support' got the bloke in question removed from post for 6 weeks, then reinstated, and the woman has now left as she can't face being in the same organisation. carpet and brushing, anyone?

i do spend most of my time livid, for one reason and another

long thread about that before dittany - can't remember if you were on it?

were there any repercussions from female students? not in the uk at the mo and wondered whether there might be some sort of formal protest...

tis v sad - but having chosen to 'ignore' in the past can understand their reaction to his piece. had hoped there had been some sort of backlash (am considerably less 'put-up-and-shut-up' than i used to be...) but hadn't heard or seen anything.

quite @ anonymous apology. and sad that women still feel unable to deal with individuals due to the weight of corporate back-up.

so many incidences.

i, however, have a very long memory. as well as having a heavyweight contact at the recruitment/ policy end of the specific organisation that is considering allowing me to conduct phd research into gender equality and treatment within the overall environment. surprisingly, they seem v keen. someone obviously believes that policy equals practice.

where are all these fiugures about bin men salaries coming from?
In Leeds they are paid £18k and the council are threatening to cut back to 14K.
My menial, 9-4pm pt job pays better than that....and I don't have to start work earlier than 8am or work in all weathers.
We have a bin woman on our patch.

I'd be a binwoman for 30k though. I'm way stronger than DH, and have more stamina.

"And even though a male primary school teacher or midwife may be paid the same as his female counterpart, they may have had to fight numerous battles to establish themselves in those roles."

Quite the reverse as far as teaching is concerned, violet. Schools jump at the chance of a male teacher for no other reason than he is male. There is a perception that a man will be better at discipline. A new male teacher was talking to me about comments he had been told recently.

It is debatable whether the current education system works against boys.

You illustrate my point exactly pointy.

A male primary school teacher may well have expectations that he will be more of a disciplinarian than his female colleagues. He may be under more overt pressure to move up the ranks. I have a male friend who teaches in primary, and he gets very pissed off at times at having kids from other classes sent to him as a disciplinary measure - he sees himself as 'the token man'.

These sorts of things can be a big battle in establishing yourself in the career you've chosen. It's not simply whether it's more (or less) difficult to get the job, it's the expectations and assumptions made.