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Man made climate change a lie?

105 replies

Cortina · 21/10/2009 12:46

Know there is a thread on this (sort of) but read this and was interested in what the 'true facts' are as far as we can tell?

Here's the deal. Global Warming Alarmism and keeping the lie alive is now a massive industry. If the IPCC gets its way, it will become the single biggest industry on the planet consuming significant financial resource and killing many other industries. Globally there are already hundreds of thousands of jobs at stake entirely dependent on this lie. The scientists, IPCC, lobbyists, green energy, Govt agencies were the first to feast in this trough. Now with emissions trading schemes, etc. on the horizon the money involved will rapidly escalate from the tens of billions to the tens of trillions of dollars. With those numbers coming, we now see the greediest pigs of all getting involved - the bankers and financiers.

How did we get to this? Well the average person is essentually stupid and has virtually no understanding of science and physics. If a message is repeated enough by people they trust they will eventually believe it is true despite all the evidence, data and facts that show otherwise. That's why we still have religions and belief in god and gods, and accepted that WMDs existed without any proof at all.

It is simple IQ test.

Belief in Man-made Global Warming = total idiot

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ZephirineDrouhin · 22/10/2009 15:32

Loving the idea of Thatcher and Reagan as environmentalists

CarryOnDancing · 23/10/2009 11:37

Modern psychology and sociology tells us that humans deal much more comfortably with facts and plans. To have 'the answer' or solution gives us comfort and enables us to function productively. It takes a bold character to swim against concensus, especially in a society where we are subject to follow the word and demands for money from the current government.
I take some interest in the fact most 'guesses' as to the cause of the climate change are based on 'infallable' computer presumptions. Why are we happy to blindly accept their predictions for the unknown future when they couldn't predict the state of the climate in 2009?
Yes it is a scary prospective to have our comfort blanket of a plan removed but I can't help but feel a sense of naivety that we 21st century residents feel we could possibly hold all the answers to the question we have had for all of 5 minutes.
Yes the climate is changing, as it has done in many cycles well before the all mighty and wise scientists began walking on this world we apparantly know so much about.

We are fed lies by the government everyday and we have recently proven they aren't the most honest group of people. Why then are some people so outraged at the suggestion that money and taxes are a perfect coincidence aligning the 'man-made' debate (debate as it still is)?

Climate change- yes, and a perfect time for us to take stock of our use of the earth that we humans are not allows guaranteed to reside on.
Man Made-a potentially pompous and convenient platform for future spending.

madhatas · 23/10/2009 12:02

Hello All,

I had to join in on this...

A few thoughts for you to draw your own conclusions from...

Everyone agrees that the earth has moved from periods of Ice Age to periods between Ice Ages. Did you realise that we are still in the last ice age? The definition of an Ice Age is a period when there are extensive permanent ice sheets in the polar regions. As large parts of Greenland, the Artic and Antartica and permanently covered in ice sheets then we are still coming out of the last ice age. - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

If we agree that we have ices ages and times of not ice age then the we have to be getting warmer. So agreed there is global warming, but surely this is part of a cycle that has happened over millions of years.

Secondly, an interesting thought for you, when was the hottest recent year? If we are generally getting warmer each year then you would expect this to be a recent year? 2008, 2007??? No, it was 1998, 11 years ago. And the general trend in global temperatures has been downwards since then.
hadobs.metoffice.com/hadcrut3/diagnostics/global/nh+sh/

Lastly, there is a lot of data that shows many parts of the world were warmer in the 18th and 19th centuries than they are now and that it all is well within the normal variations of our planet. This is a very interesting read and a big eye-opener - www.crichton-official.com/speech-ourenvironmentalfuture.html

And another lastly ;o), although this has already been pointed out, man made CO2 is a tiny fraction of the green house gasses in the atmosphere. Don't forget that there was a large cooling period just after WW2 between the 1940s and 1970s and everyone thought we were heading back into another ice age and during this time the CO2 levels increased!

Remember that you can prove anything with statistics...

throckenholt · 23/10/2009 14:24

Remember that you can prove anything with statistics...

true - but it is much harder to to that with physics.

If it is even only 1/10 chance of the predictions being right we should surely be doing what we can do mitigate it. And most not travelling as much (not flying), insulating our houses, etc save us money now - so we benefit anyway, and it also makes scarce resources go further.

Lancelottie · 23/10/2009 21:35

The trends here don't look very 'downwards', Madhata, and they have 2008 as the hottest year -- are you looking at just UK trends?.

madhatas · 24/10/2009 08:30

Hi Lancelottie,

The data I linked to was Global data.

That just proves that there needs to be a big pinch of salt taken with any data like this... that data you linked to from Nasa contradicts itself. The charts at the start seem to show that the hottest year was 2008, but if you open the word document at the bottom data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Top10.warmest.doc it shows 2005 then 1997 as the hottest years. Also it says in that document "These rankings should not be taken too seriously because the differences between these years are much smaller than the measurement uncertainties" So it is difficult to draw any conclusions anyway.

happyloris · 25/10/2009 17:08

There will always be conspiracy theorists who refuse to believe in climate change caused by humans, but for anyone who wants a simple explanation of the science, try the Met Office website - www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/myths/

They say "Climate change is a complex subject, with genuine areas of uncertainty and scientific controversy. There are also a number of misunderstandings which are recycled, often by non-climate scientists, and portrayed as scientific fact."
"Fact 1: Climate change is happening and humans are contributing to it Fact 2: Temperatures are continuing to rise Fact 3: The current climate change is not just part of a natural cycle Fact 4: Recent warming cannot be explained by the Sun or natural factors alone Fact 5: If we continue emitting greenhouse gases this warming will continue and delaying action will make the problem more difficult to fix Fact 6: Climate models predict the main features of future climate"

The main fear, rarely mentioned in the media is that soon we could reach 'tipping points' where the process accelerates out of control - e.g the Arctic permafrost starts to melt, releasing methane, a greenhouse gas twenty times as powerful as CO2, warming the atmosphere further, so more methane is released... We have a chance to act before this happens. Otherwise we'll have to explain to our children why we didn't.
www.campaigncc.org/climate_emergency

Kevlarhead · 25/10/2009 21:15

"George Monbiot IS probably more powerful than Margaret Thatcher"

Currently picturing George Monbiot crushing the miner's strike with the Met, alongside Margaret Thatcher writing endless miserable columns for the Guardian...

Cortina · 26/10/2009 11:03

Christopher Booker says we need to investigate further:

The real climate change catastrophe
In a startling new book, Christopher Booker reveals how a handful of scientists, who have pushed flawed theories on global warming for decades, now threaten to take us back to the Dark Ages

By Christopher Booker
Published: 7:00AM GMT 25 Oct 2009

Next Thursday marks the first anniversary of one of the most remarkable events ever to take place in the House of Commons. For six hours MPs debated what was far and away the most expensive piece of legislation ever put before Parliament.

The Climate Change Bill laid down that, by 2050, the British people must cut their emissions of carbon dioxide by well over 80 per cent. Short of some unimaginable technological revolution, such a target could not possibly be achieved without shutting down almost the whole of our industrialised economy, changing our way of life out of recognition.

Even the Government had to concede that the expense of doing this ? which it now admits will cost us £18 billion a year for the next 40 years ? would be twice the value of its supposed benefits. Yet, astonishingly, although dozens of MPs queued up to speak in favour of the Bill, only two dared to question the need for it. It passed by 463 votes to just three.

One who voted against it was Peter Lilley who, just before the vote was taken, drew the Speaker?s attention to the fact that, outside the Palace of Westminster, snow was falling, the first October snow recorded in London for 74 years. As I observed at the time: ?Who says that God hasn?t got a sense of humour??

By any measure, the supposed menace of global warming ? and the political response to it ? has become one of the overwhelmingly urgent issues of our time. If one accepts the thesis that the planet faces a threat unprecedented in history, the implications are mind-boggling. But equally mind-boggling now are the implications of the price we are being asked to pay by our politicians to meet that threat. More than ever, it is a matter of the highest priority that we should know whether or not the assumptions on which the politicians base their proposals are founded on properly sound science.

This is why I have been regularly reporting on the issue in my column in The Sunday Telegraph, and this week I publish a book called The Real Global Warming Disaster: Is the obsession with climate change turning out to be the most costly scientific delusion in history?.

There are already many books on this subject, but mine is rather different from the rest in that, for the first time, it tries to tell the whole tangled story of how the debate over the threat of climate change has evolved over the past 30 years, interweaving the science with the politicians? response to it.

It is a story that has unfolded in three stages. The first began back in the Seventies when a number of scientists noticed that the world?s temperatures had been falling for 30 years, leading them to warn that we might be heading for a new ice age. Then, in the mid-Seventies, temperatures started to rise again, and by the mid-Eighties, a still fairly small number of scientists ? including some of those who had been predicting a new ice age ? began to warn that we were now facing the opposite problem: a world dangerously heating up, thanks to our pumping out COâ‚‚ and all those greenhouse gases inseparable from modern civilisation.

In 1988, a handful of the scientists who passionately believed in this theory won authorisation from the UN to set up the body known as the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). This was the year when the scare over global warming really exploded into the headlines, thanks above all to the carefully staged testimony given to a US Senate Committee by Dr James Hansen, head of NASA?s Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), also already an advocate for the theory that COâ‚‚ was causing potentially catastrophic warming.

The disaster-movie scenario that rising levels of COâ‚‚ could lead to droughts, hurricanes, heatwaves and, above all, that melting of the polar ice caps, which would flood half the world?s major cities, struck a rich chord. The media loved it. The environmentalists loved it. More and more politicians, led by Al Gore in the United States, jumped on the bandwagon. But easily their most influential allies were the scientists running the new IPCC, led by a Swedish meteorologist Bert Bolin and Dr John Houghton, head of the UK Met Office.

The IPCC, through its series of weighty reports, was now to become the central player in the whole story. But rarely has the true nature of any international body been more widely misrepresented. It is commonly believed that the IPCC consists of ?1,500 of the world?s top climate scientists?, charged with weighing all the scientific evidence for and against ?human-induced climate change? in order to arrive at a ?consensus?.

In fact, the IPCC was never intended to be anything of the kind. The vast majority of its contributors have never been climate scientists. Many are not scientists at all. And from the start, the purpose of the IPCC was not to test the theory, but to provide the most plausible case for promoting it. This was why the computer models it relied on as its chief source of evidence were all programmed to show that, as COâ‚‚ levels continued to rise, so temperatures must inevitably follow.

One of the more startling features of the IPCC is just how few scientists have been centrally involved in guiding its findings. They have mainly been British and American, led for a long time by Dr Houghton (knighted in 1991) as chairman of its scientific working group, who in 1990 founded the Met Office?s Hadley Centre for research into climate change. The centre has continued to play a central role in selecting the IPCC?s contributors to this day, and along with the Climate Research Unit run by Professor Philip Jones at the University of East Anglia, controls HadCrut, one of the four official sources of global temperature data (another of the four, GIStemp, is run by the equally committed Dr Hansen and his British-born right-hand man, Dr Gavin Schmidt).

With remarkable speed, from the time of its first report in 1990, the IPCC and its computer models won over many of the world?s politicians, led by those of the European Union. In 1992, the UN staged its extraordinary Earth Summit in Rio, attended by 108 prime ministers and heads of state, which agreed the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change; and this led in 1997 to the famous Kyoto Protocol, committing the world?s governments to specific targets for reducing COâ‚‚.

Up to this point, the now officially accepted global-warming theory seemed only too plausible. Both COâ‚‚ levels and world temperatures had continued to rise, exactly as the IPCC?s computer models predicted. We thus entered the second stage of the story, lasting from 1998 to 2006, when the theory seemed to be carrying everything before it.

The politicians, most notably in the EU, were now beginning to adopt every kind of measure to combat the supposed global-warming menace, from building tens of thousands of wind turbines to creating elaborate schemes for buying and selling the right to emit COâ‚‚, the gas every plant in the world needs for life.

But however persuasive the case seemed to be, there were just beginning to be rather serious doubts about the methods being used to promote it. More and more questions were being asked about the IPCC?s unbalanced approach to evidence ? most notably in its promotion of the so-called ?hockey stick? graph, produced in time for its 2001 report by a hitherto obscure US scientist Dr Michael Mann, purporting to show how global temperatures had suddenly been shooting up to levels quite unprecedented in history.

One of the hockey stick?s biggest fans was Al Gore, who in 2006 made it the centrepiece of his Oscar-winning film, An Inconvenient Truth. But it then turned out that almost every single scientific claim in Gore?s film was either wildly exaggerated or wrong. The statistical methods used to create the hockey-stick graph were so devastatingly exposed by two Canadian statisticians, Steve McIntyre and Ross McKitrick (as was confirmed in 2006 by two expert panels commissioned by the US Congress) that the graph has become one of the most comprehensively discredited artefacts in the history of science.

The supporters of the hockey stick, highly influential in the IPCC, hit back. Proudly calling themselves ?the Hockey Team?, their membership again reflects how small has been the number of closely linked scientists centrally driving the warming scare. They include Philip Jones, in charge of the HadCrut official temperature graph, and Gavin Schmidt, Hansen?s right-hand man at GISS ?which itself came under fire for ?adjusting? its temperature data to exaggerate the warming trend.

Then, in 2007, the story suddenly entered its third stage. In a way that had been wholly unpredicted by those IPCC computer models, global temperatures started to drop. Although CO2 levels continued to rise, after 25 years when temperatures had risen, the world?s climate was visibly starting to cool again.

More and more eminent scientists have been coming out of the woodwork to suggest that the IPCC, with its computer models, had got it all wrong. It isn?t COâ‚‚ that has been driving the climate, the changes are natural, driven by the activity of the sun and changes in the currents of the world?s oceans.

The ice caps haven?t been melting as the alarmists and the models predicted they should. The Antarctic, containing nearly 90 per cent of all the ice in the world, has actually been cooling over the past 30 years, not warming. The polar bears are not drowning ? there are four times more of them now than there were 40 years ago. In recent decades, the number of hurricanes and droughts have gone markedly down, not up.

As the world has already been through two of its coldest winters for decades, with all the signs that we may now be entering a third, the scientific case for COâ‚‚ threatening the world with warming has been crumbling away on an astonishing scale.

Yet it is at just this point that the world?s politicians, led by Britain, the EU and now President Obama, are poised to impose on us far and away the most costly set of measures that any group of politicians has ever proposed in the history of the world ? measures so destructive that even if only half of them were implemented, they would take us back to the dark ages.

We have ?less than 50 days? to save the planet, declared Gordon Brown last week, in yet another desperate bid to save the successor to the Kyoto treaty, which is due to be agreed in Copenhagen in six weeks? time. But no one has put the reality of the situation more succinctly than Prof Richard Lindzen of the Massachusetts Institute of Technolgy, one of the most distinguished climatologists in the world, who has done as much as anyone in the past 20 years to expose the emptiness of the IPCC?s claim that its reports represent a ?consensus? of the views of ?the world?s top climate scientists?.

In words quoted on the cover of my new book, Prof Lindzen wrote: ?Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early 21st century?s developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally averaged temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree and, on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly exaggerated computer predictions combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.?

Such is the truly extraordinary position in which we find ourselves.

Thanks to misreading the significance of a brief period of rising temperatures at the end of the 20th century, the Western world (but not India or China) is now contemplating measures that add up to the most expensive economic suicide note ever written.

How long will it be before sanity and sound science break in on what begins to look like one of the most bizarre collective delusions ever to grip the human race?

'The Real Global Warming Disaster? by Christopher Booker (Continuum, £16.99) is available from Telegraph Books for £14.99 plus £1.25 postage and packing. To order, call 0844 871 1516 or go to books.telegraph.co.uk

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sprogger · 26/10/2009 11:08

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sarah293 · 26/10/2009 11:12

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Jux · 26/10/2009 11:33

Cortina, I'm with you, particularly over the CO2 industry. CO2 accounts for an absolutely minute part of the greenhouse effect. Whatever we can do about CO2 emissions is a drop in the ocean, even if we all do everything that we possibly can, it won't actually make a difference. Certainly not enough to 'save' the planet.

Does the planet need saving? No it doesn't. Does the human race need saving? Well, if it gets too hot/cold, yes. Is it worth saving? Another question entirely.

Why aren't we just colonising other planets? Because about 40 years ago we decided not to try.

Cortina · 26/10/2009 11:37

To Sprogger and Riven, I don't know anything really and by no means a scientist. I am just beginning to look into it.

I am honestly interested. I thought it was cut and dried before. Man was contributing to global warming, made sense to stop. Christopher Booker's book seems genuinely motivated.

Although not an expert it seems to me that there is a lot more that should be investigated and it's very important to keep asking questions.

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sarah293 · 26/10/2009 11:55

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ZephirineDrouhin · 26/10/2009 23:02

Those are some interesting views, Cortina. I didn't know who Christopher Booker was so I looked him up on Wiki. It seems he has quite a history of going against the scientific flow:

Via his long-running column in the UK's Sunday Telegraph, Booker has claimed that man-made global warming was "disproved" in 2008, that white asbestos is "chemically identical to talcum powder" and poses a "non-existent risk" to human health, that "scientific evidence to support [the] belief that inhaling other people's smoke causes cancer simply does not exist" and that there is "no proof that BSE causes CJD in humans". He has also defended the theory of Intelligent Design, maintaining that Darwinians "rest their case on nothing more than blind faith and unexamined a priori assumptions"

I'm not feeling a lot of confidence here in his views on climate change.

Jux, re colonising other planets, which one exactly did you have in mind?

Cortina · 27/10/2009 11:59

To Happy Loris. Just playing devil's advocate as I look up and read more on the subject. It seems far from clear cut and I question whether huge investment is the right way to tackle the issues. Not sure what the answers are:

Fact 1: Climate change is happening and humans are contributing to it

The climate has always changed, it has never been stable. Everything on earth is some tiny way contributes to the changes we see I would think. How does it relate to AGW?

Fact 2: Temperatures are continuing to rise

What time period? 1 day, 1 month, 1 year, 1 decade, 1 century, 1 millennia. Temperatures change all the time, like the climate. For the last 1-2 years global temps are much cooler. For the last decade they are flat. For 3 centuries it is much warmer now. 1,000 years ago it was substantially warmer than now.

Fact 3: The current climate change is not just part of a natural cycle
All the analysis, data and scientific analysis indicates that the current rate of warming and cooling is entirely within the normal boundaries of change. From what I've read this is not happening at rate any faster than expected.

Fact 4: Recent warming cannot be explained by the Sun or natural factors alone

Why not? It is changing at within the same boundaries as it has changed over the last 1000 years. Those changes happened naturally (ie: without manmade CO2).

Fact 5: If we continue emitting greenhouse gases this warming will continue and delaying action will make the problem more difficult to fix.

Over 95% of GHG is water vapor, man's contribution of any CO2 increases is around 1.8% - v small. There is no observable evidence that the warming is caused by GHG, there many other factors at play, such as the sun, ocean temperatures, ocean currents, etc. No tipping point with no return as far as I can tell. The earth does just find self-balancing all the changes that are occurring.

Fact 6: Climate models predict the main features of future climate

The climate models have not predicted the current cooling period. They have not been able to replicate historical climate changes when run from an early time point, and these two facts indicate that the models will have very low chance of predicting future climate changes from this point forward. The UK Met office has had a fantastically bad track record of even getting the broad forecast right for UK Summer for many years now. Here is their latest apology.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8173533.stm

They say 'Seasonal forecasting is a difficult thing to do and this places some limitations on our forecasts' Yet they are still confident that they can accurately forecast the temperature in another 20, 50 and 100 years with the assurance that the UK politicians should potentially damage the economy to stop that from happening. If these guys, and the other AGW alarmists were heads of Companies providing forward statements of business results to investors what would the feedback be?

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ZephirineDrouhin · 27/10/2009 12:19

If you read the links on the Met Office site you will find most of the answers to those points.

Cortina · 27/10/2009 14:21

Will do, thanks. I find it difficult to trust them but will go forward with open mind.

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ZephirineDrouhin · 27/10/2009 14:45

More difficult to believe than a man who believes in Intelligent Design and that smoking doesn't cause cancer?

You could try the Royal Society if you think the Met Office are all in on the conspiracy.

Cortina · 27/10/2009 14:56

True . I hadn't realised he had a history of wild claims more generally in my defence.

I don't think the Met Office are in on the 'conspiracy' just not sure I trust their 'prediction' abilities.

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sarah293 · 27/10/2009 17:06

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Jux · 27/10/2009 18:30

Well, there is no scientific evidence that second hand smoke causes cancer. I was a bit shocked when I found a H&S internal memo actually stating that (but also suggesting that it's officers don't mention it).

ZephirineDrouhin · 27/10/2009 22:38

Christ on a bike Jux, there is plenty of scientific evidence that passive smoking causes cancer. There was however one study based on some rather dodgy data from 1959 that showed no link. The research was funded by the tobacco industry strangely enough. Where did you find this H & S memo?

Still curious to know which planet you were hoping to colonise...

jackstarbright · 28/10/2009 20:49

Cortina,

Very interesting thread, thanks. I recommend you read chapter 5 of the new Levitt and Dubner book Super Freakonomics (unfortunatley only in hardback at the moment).

They claim that thanks to some super brained well funded (Bill Gates Foundation) scientists, there are already several solutions to global warming - some of them costing less than a $1bn (mere peanuts in the environmental spend world).

However, a simple solution is not politically acceptable. It will let humanity off the hook too easily, and cut short some high powered environmental activist careers (Al Gore??).

At least, once (and possibly if) things get really bad we have options....!

EdgarAllenPoo · 28/10/2009 20:56

read 'State of Fear' by Crighton.

i found it informative, and insightful (and resonable quality fiction)

i sit decisively in the >envirosceptic< camp,

can i own that word now??