so before everyone here stops voting labour, can someone explain the tories childcare policies to me?

[ssd]

am a bit worried about all these nursery voucher threads, feel some voters won't vote labour because of this

but no one seems to know what the tories are planning - does anyone have an idea? I'd like to know, as I'm sure it won't be any better than what labour are planning to do..

Well at least you have not blamed the immigrants for taking all the jobs. Dandy Dave will pull that one of the bag when the time is ready

ORLY?

I thought that was the rhetoric employed by Labour. Forgotten 'British jobs for British workers' already?

some of us have never voted labour in the first place!

Happywomble - this is the alternate reality of MN though, where only a tiny minority of people have never voted Labour. In fact we may be the only ones...

No election has yet been called so it's pointless deciding who you are going to vote for. The Tories are quite rightly hesitant to unveil their full policies as Labour will just nick em and present them as their own.
As they have done in the past.

Why are Labour hanging on?

We have to have an election by June, I think the 3rd? So there will be an election come what may in 9 months time at the most. GB is very good at denying the existance of things (do you think he hums a happy tune?) and he is obviously in denial about the coming general election.

Lsbour will do a give away budget at the end of April, hope everybody has a short memory and will forgive the last 13 years because they've saved 2p on a pint of beer - and call an election for May

Waves a flag for Callisto.

See her Wed 30-Sep-09 11:32:29. It's so good everyone should read it twice.

And let's not forget that Gordon Brown led us into this financial mess and not out of it.

(although you may blindly pad your ego by convincing yourself the Americans are following him if you like )

no athena, this financial mess was started in America, not by Gordon Brown

By Callisto Wed 30-Sep-09 11:32:29

"If Labour get in again I will be leaving the country for good because a police state is where we are blindly heading with this govt." What, like Jim Davidson, Paul Daniels and Andrew Lloyd-Webber promised to do and didn't?

No, SSD, the financial mess is global and yet another thing to be pinned on the states. Gordon Brown cannot be expected have prevented the financial meltdown. But he could and should have done more to prepare us for it. He could have wasted spent less of the tax he collected. He could have told the truth about bust and boom. Surely he knew he couldn't stop a bust??? Or is he really that dillusioned?

His tax and waste spend policies of the last decade are at least partly to blame for the UK's current position in this recession.

the financial global mess originated in the states, in the sub prime market

and no one was prepared for it

Other countries were better prepared than we were financially and other countries did not sell of half their gold reserves at rock bottom prices ( and that was at the height of the 'good' times) to fund their madness.

Athene - thanks, I was worried it was a bit ranty, I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy now.

Said - not sure what your point is?

SSD - blaming the US for the global meltdown is very blinkered.

To say that no-one was prepared for it is nonsense. There have been warning signs for several years, but the Govt chose to ignore them

Oh my god. The Tories will be a disaster for anyone dependent on public services. I've got a child who will go through the state system and elderly inlaws with no money and am really really worried. Thank you Flowery for listing all those policies DC had voted against, I had a vague recollection of them, but it absolutely gives the lie to the image he tries to present.

All of you who think state education is bad now, have you no recollection of what it was like in the eighties? There was NO discussion of how to improve it from the Tories, it was absolutely off the agenda, and hte schools in South East London were beyond abysmal, it was a disgrace. Lots of them are still crap, but lots of others are now much much better.

And what about eighteen month waits for operations? No one waits more than 18 weeks now.

How this Labour government turned out is a massive disappointment to me in many ways, but the Tories will be a disaster for anyone without a good cushion of money.

Sorry. That was a rant wasn't it.

hear hear tatty coram

'He has thrown ridiculous amounts of money at the NHS and education, most of it wasted. The NHS is just about still working, though it could do with a complete overhaul, but state education is dreadful.'

How can you say that? I was at school in the 80s and we didn't have money for books, let alone teachers and schools! We now have the lowest number of underperforming schools than we've had for years. In 1997 1,600 schools were below the threshold of 30% of pupils achieving five good GCSEs, including English and maths in England. There are now only 270 - FACT! And many schools have been rebuilt under building schools for the future. Before 1997, hospital stock was crumbling and we had 18 months and more waiting lists. As tatty says we are now down to 18 weeks and investments have been made in hospital buildings and equipment. Do you honestly think any of this would have happened under a tory government?

While I'm a bit concerned about the proposal to remove childcare vouchers, which I did assume was what was meant by cutting tax breaks, I actually think the limitations of childcare vouchers mean it's possible that they could be replaced by something better.
The childcare vouchers scheme benefits higher rate taxpayers far more than basic rate tax payers, it's quite complicated, it's only available if your employer offers a scheme, and there are issues about women planning/expecting to take further maternity leave and pensions etc.

My dp gets childcare vouchers - I had got the forms but was still dithering about what to do when I realised I was pregnant again, and I didn't know that I could at least in theory join at 4/5 weeks, leave at 17 weeks and rejoin at 25 weeks pregnant (I'm still not sure I would have pulled it off).

I fear improvements unlikely to happen under our next government - the Tories have made it clear they're out to get Surestart which I think has been one of the best things Labour have done. And everyone else is talking about cuts in something. No one's offering policies at the moment which will make the cost of childcare in proportion to going to work less of a headache - existing and proposed Labour policies seem to be the best of a bad lot.

I write this as a very sceptical Labour Party member who has been known to vote for other parties in elections (never have and never will vote Tory or Lib Dem though!)

All of you who think state education is bad now, have you no recollection of what it was like in the eighties? There was NO discussion of how to improve it from the Tories, it was absolutely off the agenda, and hte schools in South East London were beyond abysmal, it was a disgrace. Lots of them are still crap, but lots of others are now much much better.

A friend of mine, black, son of a single mother, did very well in the 80s. Got an assisted place, went to an independent school, and he said it set him up for life. Labour removed this opportunity when they came to power.

As for the schools in South East London, by what basis are you claiming they've improved?

And what about eighteen month waits for operations? No one waits more than 18 weeks now.

That's complete bollocks though. Of course they do. The waiting list thing was just one of many of Labour's 'fix the number, not the problem' policies that leads to people gaming the system. In the NHS the 4 hour A+E maximum led to fake in-patient wards in A+E, to avoid going over the 4 hours.

Average waits have RISEN under Labour: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-treatment-waiting-times-rise-under-labour-791334.html

They've got waiting lists for waiting lists, and the 18 week rule grants no discretion to prioritise those in more urgent need.

I went to an inner London school in the 80's and it was nothing as described. We had home economics and used to cook lunch with lamb roasts etc for staff. We had needlecraft where we could design and make our own clothes (great for the cindy/ madonna look). We had plastic, woodwork and metal work where we proudly took home our wares. We had real food in our canteens, a tuck shop and even an ice cream van on site in the summer !

We had one to one music lessons, drama and school productions. Assemblies were a time to showcase students talents.

We had after school tuition and catch up clubs and a range of different languages not in the carriculum as well as drama and music clubs.

For PE we did a range of subject inlcuding trips to the Sobel ( spelling?) centre to do aerobic, weights, rock climbing etc, all other compedative sports.

Plenty of holidays abroad, trips to museums etc and all tucked nicely into the o'level/ gcse cariculum.

We also had a programme for children who didn't want to learn, were disruptive or violent where they could go off to another school and learn computers/ typing/ and (boys stuff) rebuilding tv's etc.

There was no great race divide either, no 'grouping' of ethinicity, everyone took the mickey out of everyone else and no one was politically correct.

School was great.

How I would hate to attend school nowadays.

The reason why GCSE passes are so good now is because they've been hugely dumbed down.

It's all geared towards keeping kids in education for longer - no bad thing - however it creates the impression that teaching standards are much better today when I really don't believe they are.

A below average student can easily pass 5 GCSE's now where they would not have done 20 years ago.

TattyCorum and PinkTeddy - in fact the 18 week waiting list is absolute bollocks. I know this for a fact from several people who have had to wait much longer for appointments and operations. Just because a person is booked in for something within 18 weeks doesn't mean that person will get to see the specialist/have the operation within 18 weeks. The NHS is in need of a complete overhaul and it wastes millions upon millions of pounds. It certainly isn't value for money.

As for schools, have you actually been living in the UK for the last 10 years? Have you missed all of the reports about British children being the least academically able in the West and about GCSE and A levels becoming easier so more people get them?

I do find it amazing that some people still believe what the government tells them.

That's not our experience though Callisto- mine is of a massive improvement ffrom when I was working in the NHS (circa 1992) to becoming a service user for the last decade; it may be regional variation but my experience, and that of my family (dad same op in 1989 and last year) is of a big improvement.

I relaise there will be a massive list of posts following now with negatives, nonetheless that doesn't detract from the reality of my experience for me.

Likewise schooling: I went to a school where it was assumed council estate kids couldn't succeed so not given any chances- at home in the council house ther was no heating so I was exempt from homework over the winter, watched my friends forced out of school at 16 becuase of lack of support and lose jobs in the last recession as their factories closed down and they had no qualifications and no chance.

I am now doing an MA so think I have proved council estate kids can do it, parents have central heating and hot water installed in the council house (and yes they ahev always paid their own rent before someone says all Council tenants are unemployed! Not true, especially of those housed in the 70's)... the college I worked at was seeing the next generation of kids from the same famillies actually coming in with EMA........ all things often slated on here yet in my direct experience, ofgrouing u and then working in that area, that are making small but important changes.

I'm not claiming ALbour haven't made msitakes,I'd have to be barking, but I (and those from my family who stilllive in that area) believe there has been a qualitative improvement in the lives and future prospects of the people there. And indeed the same feeling is widespread here IME- South Wales, another area badly hit by the Tories.

So whilst I know from reaidng peoples posts that there are massive widespread problems, is isn;t the case that everywhere has got worse- the school my children attends is a tenfold improvement on mine for starters, and the assumption is that HE and FE are based on ability not parental income- and whilst we all know that there are no guarantees with any education, you're a damn sight better off with something than nothing.

Why would you think I believe everything the Government tells me?

Waiting lists are shorter now. They have been falling since 2000. You may still think that 18 weeks is too long to wait and there will still be a few people where there is a *&%k up and it doesn?t happen because a hospital is under-performing (I think it?s about 2-3%). By the way, the Government has a target that people diagnosed with cancer are treated within a month - yes, you might think that?s too long, but I would be very surprised if clinicians didn?t use their clinical judgement in prioritising who is to be treated.

Averages aren?t really relevant here - there used to be a curve with a very long tail of people who had been waiting for yonks. Now there is a curve with a bulge of people treated just before 18 weeks. So there was a bit of trade off, some people treated quite quickly and some people waiting for ages, or everyone treated within a reasonable time frame.

SO, perhaps you think it wasn?t worth the money, or perhaps you think the waiting lists are too long, but, in the main, shorting lists are longer

Schools?? I?m not there yet, but when I was growing up there were two failing schools near me - literally 11-16 holding pens. One has had a total change, of name of staff of everything and is now impossible to get into. The other has had a big architect designed revamp and is trying to up academic standards by offering early GCSES, fast tracking and the IB. There is also a totally new comprehensive about to open. Now there are still big problems with the middle of those schools, but I would at least consider it now. I would have moved to Orkney before sending my DS there before

SO, Labour has fucked up on tonnes of stuff, Iraq, the banks, the ridiculous house price bubble, inequalities??. But some stuff I think IS better - if not perfect. And all I can see so far taht Cameron would do is to abolish inheritance tax for people with expensive houses and oppose flexible working and the like. Great.