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"on mumsnet this week" in the Mail. Is this a new thing

22 replies

jujumaman · 13/08/2009 10:32

Came across this this morning when I should have been working

Is this a new weekly rip-off by the Mail? Or has it been going on for months and I'm behind the times as usual

I'm not quite as virulently anti the Mail as mnetters, find it silly rather than the end of civilisation as we know it. But still ...

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 12:07

Hello hello,
We contacted the writer a day or two ago and she confirmed that this is going to be a regular item. Despite a few misgivings about the DM, we know that this particular Mumsnetter will do a good job - as been said she's been around for ages and definitely gets what's the site's all about - so we're not agin it. As folk have said it's a chance to spread the Mumsnet word to those who need it most . We'll see if we can persuade the Mail to include a link to the site in return for their content! Thanks for the input.

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 12:18

Mumsnet isn't an exclusive club though - we're not really here for like-minded people only. Though obviously we hope that through a process of discussion that unreasonable views and positions will prove untenble.

This is not an "official partnership" because we've not been involved or consulted in the process of it appearing at any point but on balance are we unhappy about it, no because as others have quite rightly said, everything that's on here is in the public domain anyway.

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 12:20

By the way the Daily Mail is the most visited media site from Mumsnet - but I suspect there's a lot of folks going off to look at something that's caused outrage involved.

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 16:36

Ok so am back - sorry for absence vonsudenfed - took me old mam out to lunch, but I should no by now that you should never post on a thread like this and leave (although I do just have to pop out again in a min to go blackberry picking so apologies in advance but I'll be back later on.)

Anyway this is a very interesting and pertinent discussion. Thanks to all for their contributions.

A few things to clarify. First there is certainly no ill-will between the journalist writing this item and MN - quite the contrary. Yes she was cross with us at one point a few years back for some deleting I did during quite a heated discussion and left quite publicly but she returned pretty swiftly with a new name and has been around a lot since. So there is no reason to believe she has anything but honourable intentions re the column. She has contributed immensely to MN over the years.

She has also confirmed that no scenarios should be identifiable in real life from the
column (which obviously isn't the case with Mumsnet and our friend Google!). And said she/DM would remove any clearly idenifying facts (eg professions, specific details).

Second, as has been pointed out by Rusty, we cannot stop things being reproduced from here under the Fair Use laws. That does not mean folks can reproduce great tracts in the form of a book (only we can do that ) but it does mean you can be quoted and there's nothing we can do to stop it. (Of course we always hope you'll be quoted properly and not misquoted but sadly it doesn't always happen). We do obviously all have nicknames and allow unlimited namechanges so that anyone who's worried about being identified to friends and family (or others) can cover their tracks.

We always advise that you shouldn't put things on here that identify you and that you wouldn't want to be available to the wider world. Mumsnet is an open forum, searchable on Google - the audience therefore is considerably bigger than the Daily Mail's and everything you write is out there for public consumption. It's very easy to think of MN as club of sympathetic, likeminded folk - which in many ways it is - but Google isn't and if you put things on MN they are, quite simply accessible to every Tom, Dick and disgusted DM reader of Tunbridge Wells.

Had the Mail come to us and asked about this particular venture we would have had somewhat mixed feelings and would have undoubtedly run it by Mumsnetters first. Tbh though some of that's because it's the Mail, rather than the concept of MN being quoted, as we share some of your concerns about association with a paper that seems to contain so much anti-woman stuff.

We do though run a free site here. We turn down more advertising than we take and we have no money left over after running costs for publicity/advertising. We need to keep attracting folk to the site to keep it viable. Ask yourself how you found Mumsnet and many of you will have come via some kind of newspaper article or coverage.

Plus we genuinely believe the advice and support available here should be available to as many folk as possible.

However, we accept all the very valid points about the sensitive nature of some of the information posted here. Tech is currently working on private groups to be set up around particular subject areas/communities - eg SN, bereavement, miscarriage, lone parents etc

These areas will be be password protected and should be ready for use in a couple of months. If they work out hopefully it will suit better some of you who feel uncomfortable about posting on a public forum but still allow to MN. We'll keep you posted on our progress.

Do, of course, continue to let us know your thoughts.

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 16:46

No they wouldn't Google your name but the might Google what you're discussing - our most popular search term is... wait for it... smelly washing machine. And then who knows what they'll find...

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 16:51

disingenuous - where have i heard that before.
MaggieBelleVirgo that's quite hurtful actually - we specifically don't chase profits willy nilly and never had - that's why we turn down so much advertising. We do however, now, have quite a lot of bills that need to be paid - rent, staff who have mortgages to pay etc. It's true we didn't used to because Me, Carrie Steven and Rachel worked for quite a long time without paying ourselves.

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 16:59

Didn't say that FAQ, I said that more folks have access to MN via Google than read the Daily Mail. People of our generation (apologies if you're a much younger generation) tend to view being in a newspaper as much more important than being on a website but I'm not sure our kids will see it that way (if newspapers indeed even still exist)

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 17:02

Oh bugger you've revealed our secret plan Maggie - and there were we hoping the Daily Mail might buy us!

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 17:06

"I do also sometimes feel (both here and in the Mouldies fall out) where MN members would like to be defended a bit more heartily by HQ, who seem to have different priorities."

But what would you have us do vonsudenfedhatespauldacre?

(Sorry genuinely confused)

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 17:25

Clairdeloon - fair use - we can't do anything about selective quoting of MN

Vonsudenfedhatespauldacre tbh I find the knee-jerk anti-journalism that can prevail on MN a bit tricky to deal with. My dh is a journalist, I was a journo of sorts (if you can count footie and cricket) and lots of v good mnetters are journos - I'm not quite sure why folks are so virulently agin but it's an interesting one to explore. So while we sympathise with the very serious privacy issues, the whole lazy journo stuff can seem a bit mean, to me. But I'm very happy to debate it!

Re Mouldies (similar misgivings about can of worms) it was an incredibly difficult situation for us because the oldies as you put it were MN for many years - we felt/feel a certain loyalty to them because they'd contibuted so much, and we liked many as people too. Just as we'd feel a loyalty to many of the folk on this thread now - even if they decided MN was rotten to the core and buggered off to Bounty - we'd still feel obliged to stick up for folks who we knew were good folk, or at least not slag em off, even if it might have be the expedient thing to do.

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 17:33

vonsudenfedhatespauldacre i was responding to your point where you said you thought we were slow to empathise with folks about this issue - trying to say that I don't empathise with a lot of the lazy journo argument that had been expressed on the thread in question.
Now I have to shoot off for a bit but promise to be back laters.

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 17:33

Before I burn the tea .

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 17:39

Ok just finally (tea well and truly charred) - I don't think it is particularly lazy to identify an issue - before which you probably have to read loads of threads. Then read a thread with hundreds of posts - pick the relevant ones, take out the identifying bits, write and intro. It's not Pulitzer prize stuff but at least there's some work involved. The real lazy stuff (imho) is the column about my dog but I still wouldn't condemn anyone for that either - after all they've got to have been commissioned - ie convinced an editor they can write amongst a lot of competition. And if folk didn't read it - it wouldn't make it.

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 17:43

Well yes that's clearly unfortunate Tamarto- maybe the writer will come on and have her say - was possibly not her fault. Hope so.

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 21:23

Evening all,
Can I just point out to those that might be joining the conversation late that we knew nothing about this column until it appeared.

The first we heard of it was last week when someone posted on MN they'd seen it. However we recognised the author as a Mumsnetter and so I wrote to her a couple of days ago to ask if, as it seemed it might be from the title, going to be a regular thing. She confirmed it was. The Mail did not ask us first or seek our approval and we certainly didn't seek the association.

On the issue of fair use in general and journos lifting stuff from MN it has always been our understanding that they can legally, but we'll look into it again because it's clearly an ongoing issue.

On the copyright issue (this with particular reference to point Swedes has made about shared copyright) we have actually sought some advice on this and we in the process of amending our current wording to make it less extreme. In other words it's on someone's to do list but there's lots to be done. Anyway we'll make sure we get to it pronto particularly as our Pregnancy book is due out quite soon and it's bound to be raised again then.

We do understand your concerns about privacy in general. All we can really advise at this point is that if you are worried about being exposed then you do need to be careful, as MN is a public forum. We also will always try to assist as quickly as possible if something wants a post deleted because they've said something injudicious.

In a month or two hopefully we'll have something slightly more constructive to offer in the way of private fora for special groups that we really hope will be a good solution for those with concerns.

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 21:45

The truth is though, the only absolute protection, if you're planning to reveal a lot of private detail is not to post on a public board - this is the internet. Your posts can be lifted, linked to and searched for by all and sundry. We cannot protect folk from all that without changing the very nature of MN.

We can and are building private groups but they'll not offer the immediacy or volume of advice the public boards will.

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 22:53

Not at all frosty but no banter either. I respected her posts and was sad to see her leave way back when but she was only an Ex-Mumsnetter for a little while. Came back quite soon under a new name.

We weren't bullied into anything because we didn't know about it! We were slightly surprised that the Mail hadn't run it by us, though, tis true.

JustineMumsnet · 13/08/2009 23:22

We copied our copyright notice off someone else eons ago iirr - possibly Gina Ford - so not sure how efficacious it is tbh and as I've said we're in the process of changing it to sound far less stringent - Gerry's got the new stuff up her sleeve but she's on hols right now - but you're right it is a bit nonsensical because my understanding that it's not really a tenable position wrt to fair use, but as said, I'll check.

JustineMumsnet · 14/08/2009 00:33

Oops we haven't sanctioned anything - as I've said had we been asked we would have put it to the MN jury, who would have undoubtedly have said no!
I seriously doubt we have any right to stop publication of short extracts from MN but I will check for sure.

JustineMumsnet · 14/08/2009 00:58

Oops we asked the writer whether the Mail was planning to make it a regular thing. It did feel odd that they didn't ask us first (maybe they knew it might fail at that stage) but it didn't really enter my mind to challenge/oppose it because the way we see it, everything you write is in the public domain - so pretty much out there for quoting.

We also - being honest - thought it good publicity. A Mumsnetter picking out interesting MN threads is really on balance quite a good way of portraying MN - one would expect some sensitivity and understanding. If you're going to be in the Mail (which has an enormous readership then this is probably the best way to be in it).

But having said all that we do accept that many folk would rather chew off their own arm than have anything to do with the DM. And we hear what you all say about the association so we'll certainly think about what we can do to ensure people don't get hurt.

JustineMumsnet · 14/08/2009 01:05

That's half a bottle now Fluffy. Thanks!

JustineMumsnet · 14/08/2009 01:12

Wozzah? Night all s'ya in ze mornin

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