"Breastfeeding is oppressing women" (from The Guardian)

[morningpaper]

Let the breastfeeding rebellion begin

"In the 70s, many women protested that they were shackled to domesticity by the unreasonably high bar set for housework. Now, some say, it's not the vacuum cleaner that's oppressing women, but another sucking sound ..."

But but but but

This is a depressing article.

A British academic wouldn't give her name "because she is concerned about attacks from the pro-breastfeeding lobby"

I also fidn it really annoying when people say "I really tried to breastfeed for six days and it didn't work" - By six days lots of women will be in agony. The message that if you haven't got it cracked by six days then it hasn't worked - is just wrong.

And if there is such enormous pressure to exclusively breastfeed then why are only 3% of mothers still doing it at 5 months?

Yes women will feel guilty if they don't breastfeed. Women have the chance to feel guilty if they don't do a million things that are 'optimal' for their children's health and wellbeing. We can all agree that women need more support in the transition to motherhood, by setting up this monster of a pro-breastfeeding lobby is utterly unhelpful.

Having children BLOWS for women - your fanjo is shot to pieces, your career goes down the shitter, you piss yourself every time you sneeze, you lose your pension rights, your brain turns to mush, you have no social standing, boys stop grinning at your in the street - but BREASTFEEDING IS STILL THE OPTIMAL WAY TO FEED YOUR BABIES. You can't un-do that boring fact. And handing women a bottle isn't going to make everything better.

thebody : "Pinkfizz,there is some facinating stuff out there about bonding but as a mum who struggled to 'bond' with my first child, even when fully breastfeeding him, I politely suggest that there is also a hell of a lot of CRAP out there as well.( My ds is now 20 and I adore him.)"

For goodness sake, thebody, which bits of 'bonding' are psycho-babble and which bits aren't? I take it you accept that bonding is a good thing, that it ought to happen? And that 'struggling' to bond, as you did, is not a good thing? The research on bonding has moved on from the 30-year-old notion that it had to happen straight away...it is a process, not an event. Instant bonding is not essential, but mothers may need the 'right conditions' for it to be enabled over the first weeks and months. I am sad for anyone who 'struggled'. Are you saying it doesn't matter that women struggle, because eventually, they will get there?? Of course it matters! They might get there in the end, but it's surely not good that it takes a struggle. Here's my top tip - read more, post less

And to explain why I said 'it is not enough to feed and love your baby' - I said it was a good start, but of course it is not enough. I am amazed that a nursing sister full of empathy cannot see that. Feeding and loving are part of a relationship, but not the whole of it. Do you really want me to list other stuff that plays a part in this? Surely not....not with all your empathy

I believe that neither breastfeeding nor formula feeding is oppressive, rather that the majority of new mothers are wholly unprepared for the near constant level of attention a newborn needs.

Coupled with many aspects of modern parenting which do not sit well with breastfeeding. Guru?s recommending strict routines which encourage widely spaced feeds, which can advisedly affect milk supply.

Mothers expecting babies to sleep on their own and through the night artificially early, which is unlikely to happen in a demand led breastfed child. This can lead to mothers thinking that breastfeeding equals a tired mother, which is not necessarily true. I certainly found breastfed co-sleeping baby equalled a lot of sleep for me.

Many new mothers have little or no knowledge of how normal breastfeeding works, like evening cluster feeds, growth spurts and that the frequency and length of feeds will reduce greatly after the first few weeks/months (depending on the child). This leads to additional concerns for a new mother.

I have heard mothers talking about common breastfeeding myths like how it is necessary to follow a perfect diet, no smoking, no alcohol regime in order to breastfeed. Making breastfeeding seem much less achievable for the average new mum, who has time for a perfect diet with a newborn in the house ?

So on one hand you can have a mother with little information, little support, little knowledge on how breastfeeding works, belief in the breastfeeding myths and is much more likely to find breastfeeding challenging or impossible and may feel that breastfeeding is oppressive.

On the other hand you can have a mother with access to good information, support and knowledge on how breastfeeding works, understand the facts behind the breastfeeding myths and is much more likely to overcome early breastfeeding problems and is less likely feel oppressed.

Babieseverywhere - totally agree with everything you said.

I thought BF meant I couldn't take certain painkillers if I wanted to help with the inense pain in my lady-bits (tore badly), that it meant I couldn't have any sort of social life which involved perhaps getting drunk (how dare I!), couldn't eat certain foods, had to eat others (when all I had time for was a microwave meal most days) and co-sleeping was a definite no-no. The HV and MWs said I was to never sleep with my baby under any circumstances and being a first time very naive (sp?) mum I took her advice by the letter. She even made me take a tiny teddy out of his moses basket that I had carried around with me for 3 months before the birth to get my smell on it "Didn't you read the book we gave you" she scolded!

It was only after speaking with some friends that we started putting DS in the bed with us sometimes to comfort him and it did make me wonder if BF might have been better if I could have done that but it was too late by then.

That being said I don't feel in the slightest bit guilty about FFing but I might persevere with BF a bit more if I have another one.

Southmum, It sounds like you have been badly let down by your HV and MW, they failed to give you the support and information you needed

If you do decide to breastfeed your next child, Mumsnet has great advice and loads of information.

tictok, what the fuck are you on about?

why do you seem to want to make motherhood so bloody complicated.. it isnt.. you have a shag, get pregnant, give birth and if you are normal you love and care for your baby with, sure a few hiccups on the way..kids love you back.. thats my experience anyway and I have done it 3 times, 1 child sucessfully at uni, one just done A levels and one just got a fab school report at 10 years old...

I must be missing all the bloody angst.. dare I say that having children is FUN and I love being a mum..

foreverchanges Sun 19-Jul-09 11:59:27 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

"think there are far too many women had negative experiences of bf and imo a lot of this is due to lack of support and expert knowledge from nhs healthcare professionals"

what about the women like me, who were totally committed, had oodles of support, lived in one of the most breast-promoting areas of the UK, but nobody told them that actually there might be medical problems that put a spanner in the wheel? that natural is all very well, but that there may be children for whom natural is not actually going to happen?

I was not shit at breastfeeding- I was bloody brilliant at it! At one point I was filling the freezer and helping to stock up the local milk bank. And I still can't look at the pictures of dd on the changing table because today I can see what I refused to see 12 years ago- that she was a little skeleton.

Standard responses like "we must get better at promoting breastfeeding" are just no comfort to me: I had all the support anyone could ask for. I would never have got into this mess if I had not believed so firmly that only a breastfeeding mother is a Real Mother. Not because breastfeeding would not have been right in 99.9% percent of the cases. But because I will always wonder if in my own case it was really about what was best for dd, rather than what fitted in with my idea of myself as the Real Mother.

thebody you provide me with what you term a "polite suggestion" but then add a shout out in capitals that there is a hell of a lot of CRAP out there.

why do you feel the need to swear at tiktok?

"I must be missing all the bloody angst.. dare I say that having children is FUN and I love being a mum.."
The relevent point of your post is I. It is great that you have had a very positive parenting excperience but not everyone else is as lucky...don't they deserve support ?

cory i bf both mine dc s for a year each . they had bm only ,and b solely till 6 months ds was always skinny and still is (but healthy) dd was chubbyish and still is.
why do you feel like a bad mum ?

it was my experience of not having nhs support ,i did over-generalise ,its prob not everyones experience,i didnt go to a 'baby friendly' hospital,i was the only person on the wards bf each time ,the first time i had little help. there was one bf expert who was off all weeekend though i did see her once

every hospital should be 'baby friendly' not just some ...

pinkfizzle - don't worry too much. I think we are witnessing thebody's empathy-mixed-with-common-sense she's so proud of

thebody - fantastic you have found motherhood a breeze in the long term. You 'struggled' at first with bonding, and overcame it - brilliant. I don't want to complicate motherhood, but for some women (including you, at first) it isn't simple, it's hard work, and shouting that all that's needed is 'feeding and love' at anyone who suggests it might be a tad more complicated doesn't help anyone and isn't (dare I say it) empathic.

cory - good breastfeeding support includes recognising when a baby is not thriving. It doesn't mean 'continue breastfeeding and all will be well'. You didnt have all the support you needed - support doesn't mean a team of cheer leaders, it means good knowledge, practical skills, and information about the medical conditions which might make bf insufficient. You were let down

sorry not a bad mum but that you let your child down sorry you feel like that .im not against ff anyway just that bf worked for me

its very hard to say anything positive about bf on this thread without upsetting anyone its very strange and touche thread

Well I've been following this debate with interest and decided finally to chip in. The whole feeding thing is fairly new to me, as I've just had my first baby two weeks ago. So far, I have been doing exactly what I planned to do which is breastfeeding my baby as much as possible/whenever possible, but giving a bottle or letting my husband give a bottle at times too so that I can be freed up to get a bit of sleep/recover from the birth. So far this is working brilliantly for me; I know others may think that it will affect my supply negatively and I won't be able to breastfeed for that long but if true, that is a price I am willing to pay. Exclusive breastfeeding is not for me, I've known that all along, and I don't feel in the slightest bit guilty about it.

I think 'oppress' is an unfortunate choice of words, but I do think that feminists need to admit that there is a price to pay for exclusive breastfeeding. They may choose to pay that price, that's fine, but it is a price nonetheless, especially in the first few months of a baby's life. It's exactly like the working/staying at home debate: I acknowledge that it may be best for my child for me to stay at home for the first few years of his life. Nevertheless, I'm not willing to do it, because the price in terms of my happiness and wellbeing would be too high.

One of the commenters below asks a question like 'if you formula feed, do you really expect your husband will be queueing up to do the night feeds?' Er... well yes that's exactly what I do expect. I'm lucky enough to be married to someone who is willing to share the workload of having a child with me, and frankly, I wouldn't put up with anything less.

I completely understand that some women value the health benefits of exclusive breastfeeding above all feminist/shared workload considerations, but we shouldn't deny that those considerations are there and need to be given weight. I think that's all that the original Atlantic article, and the Guardian piece, were trying to do.

Well I've been following this debate with interest and decided finally to chip in. The whole feeding thing is fairly new to me, as I've just had my first baby two weeks ago. So far, I have been doing exactly what I planned to do which is breastfeeding my baby as much as possible/whenever possible, but giving a bottle or letting my husband give a bottle at times too so that I can be freed up to get a bit of sleep/recover from the birth. So far this is working brilliantly for me; I know others may think that it will affect my supply negatively and I won't be able to breastfeed for that long but if true, that is a price I am willing to pay. Exclusive breastfeeding is not for me, I've known that all along, and I don't feel in the slightest bit guilty about it.

I think 'oppress' is an unfortunate choice of words, but I do think that feminists need to admit that there is a price to pay for exclusive breastfeeding. They may choose to pay that price, that's fine, but it is a price nonetheless, especially in the first few months of a baby's life. It's exactly like the working/staying at home debate: I acknowledge that it may be best for my child for me to stay at home for the first few years of his life. Nevertheless, I'm not willing to do it, because the price in terms of my happiness and wellbeing would be too high.

One of the commenters below asks a question like 'if you formula feed, do you really expect your husband will be queueing up to do the night feeds?' Er... well yes that's exactly what I do expect. I'm lucky enough to be married to someone who is willing to share the workload of having a child with me, and frankly, I wouldn't put up with anything less.

I completely understand that some women value the health benefits of exclusive breastfeeding above all feminist/shared workload considerations, but we shouldn't deny that those considerations are there and need to be given weight. I think that's all that the original Atlantic article, and the Guardian piece, were trying to do.

"there is a price to pay for exclusive breastfeeding"
Is there ? What is that then ?

I ask as a mother who breastfeeds my 2.11 year old and 11 month old baby (exclusively for the first 6 months) and I have no idea what I should of given up or paid

cory, i think it's really interesting that the hcps weren't putting immense pressure on you to top up, was it because you had so much milk do you think? do you reckon they just couldn't get their heads round the anomaly?

and thebody, i note... 'sure a few hiccups on the way' and i'd hazard that you, like a lot of women with older children, have just forgotten how it was. it does irritate me when people with older kids come on here sniggering about pfbs as if they were somehow immune at the time. scratch the surface (or as i have actually done) do a search for them a few years ago, and you tend to get to the truth. we all have these disappointments, we're all saddened by them, we all deal with them differently in the longer term.

babieseverywhere - sorry, all I meant in terms of 'price to pay' is that no-one else can share the workload of feeding your baby, at least unless/until you get expressing very well established.

there's a price to pay for exclusive bottlefeeding, of course. in the sheer faff in the middle of the night, in fankling about getting bottles together before going out, in always worrying that you've remembered to bring milk with you... not to mention the actual cash involved.

smallwhitecat - but if you mix feed, then you can give either a bottle or the breast in the night, and if your husband/partner ever does have a free night when he can take over from you, then you'll at least have a bit of a break.

i know that you're okay with it, but there's a very good chance that you won't have the option forever, mixandmatch. sooner or later your supply will tail off and you'll be traipsing down to a cold kitchen at 4am like the rest of us.

mixandmatch, I see your point.

However it is a lot less restrictive than you think. I can leave my son with my husband OR grandma for around 5 hours without leaving milk for him. He is happy to drink water, juice and eat solids in my absence. And I have been able to do this since he was 6 months old.

Before then (i.e. When he was younger than 6 months) I could leave him for maybe 2 hours without milk. So I have feed him gone for a haircut and be back later. But to be honest I didn't want to leave him.

I find my baby despite feeding hourly when I am around can wait for me if I am not there.

"its very hard to say anything positive about bf on this thread without upsetting anyone..."

I think you might have blown it on the upsetting people front with this comment, foreverchanges!

"..while it would horrify me to stick rubber teat into my own newborns mouth to feed them with milk made in a lab, i do not judge other others mothers for doing this as said above its a personal choice like abortion.."

havnt forgotten Aitich just know that having little ones is the easiest time of your life. enjoy it..