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A gay couple adopted our grandchildren.. and kids think we're dead

190 replies

Notsotired · 21/06/2009 20:09

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The heartbroken grandparents of two children adopted by a gay couple have been told they will never see them again.

Despite looking after their five-year-old grandson and four-year-old granddaughter for three years, social workers decided they were "too old" and unsuitable to continue.

And, tragically, the children now think that their grandparents are dead.

"Social workers made up their minds that we were too old," says the grandad, who is 59. His wife is just 46 and both look much younger.

"It just breaks my heart and eats away at me every day. My own grandchildren have been wrenched away and now they think that me and their granny are dead."

The children went to live with their grandparents because their mother, a heroin addict, couldn't look after them. The boy's father is dead and the girl's father has not had any contact with her.

But social workers later insisted the children would be better off with the two gay men. "My wife and I were happy bringing the children up ourselves," says the grandfather.

"We are their family. Now we've been told we'll never see them again. How can that possibly be right? They are our flesh and blood."

The children have now been given new identities and totally removed from their former life, family and friends.

The only contact their grandparents have had with the children in the last eight months is a two-paragraph letter from their new parents giving a few scraps of news about the pair.

The case provoked a storm of criticism in February when the adoption was first revealed.

The grandparents and children cannot be identified for legal reasons so we are calling the boy Adam and his sister Katie. We are calling their grandparents Brian and Margaret.

Thanks to a well-wisher, the grandparents know where the children are living, only a few miles away in an affluent area near Edinburgh.

Whenever they are in the area the grandparents find themselves staring out of their car windows in the forlorn hope of catching a glimpse of the children.

"Even if we saw them we would never approach them or do anything that would upset them," says Brian with tears welling up in his eyes. "But we can't help hoping we might see them in the distance."

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When it became clear that the children's mum was incapable of looking after them, social workers were happy for Brian and Margaret to be granted "interim parental rights".

But problems began when the mum, addled by drink and drugs, began making threats against her parents, saying she wanted her children back.

In September 2006, Brian and Margaret reluctantly suggested to social workers that Adam and Katie should stay briefly with foster parents until their daughter stopped menacing them.

Then Brian and Margaret say they found themselves under immense scrutiny from social workers who later changed their minds about their suitability to care for the children. Brian and Margaret hired solicitors to get the children back.

Four times a court ruled in their favour, but eventually, they say, they were left unable to cope with the lawyers' bills and emotional stress.

Brian claims they were then "bullied and manipulated" into eventually agreeing to the children being adopted last year - on the basis that they would still have some contact with the children.

Then, last October, they were shocked to discover that two men were adopting Adam and Katie. And in the row that has followed all access has been cut off. Margaret says: "We honestly are not bigots. It's just the practicalities which bother me. Which dad do they call dad? "How can anyone explain to a five-and a four-year-old what on earth has happened here? It's all so sad."

The gay couple have been together for eight years. They live in a smart home and lead a well-off lifestyle. They are both in their thirties and one has given up work to look after the children, taking them to school and nursery.

Before the children moved in, they got planning permission improvements to their home to accommodate the children Knowing that Adam and Katie live so close makes the agony even worse for Brian and Margaret. "It's Adam's birthday next month," says Margaret.

"I want to give him a present like any normal granny. I just want to see the kids - even if it's only twice a year, that would be better than nothing." Brian says social workers told him that the children think he and Margaret are dead because they haven't seen them since October.

"It's not surprising that they think we're dead when they haven't seen us for so long. We've been just erased from everything.

"I can't stand the thought that these kids will think we have abandoned them."

Originally Brian and Margaret say they were told they would be still be allowed contact with the children. "We would never have consented to adoption otherwise," says Brian. "But now we've been told we will never see them."

The couple are in talks with solicitors in the hope of winning some limited access, but accept the adoption cannot now be overturned.

A sympathetic businessman is paying their legal bills, but it will be a long drawn-out process. Meanwhile, a short drive away, Brian and Margaret fear Adam and Katie are starting a new life believing that Gran and Grandad are dead.

OP posts:
whereeverIlaymyhat · 23/06/2009 20:30

Stay if the boys mother is a lesbian that it is a totally different kettle of fish and no I would not have him adopted but as you mention the racist issue as you predictably have I am sure many mixed race children will tell you their lives have not been easy either however as people cannot help who they fall in love with theirs is a battle worth fighting, as you could argue is that of your nephew's, would you choose that battle for him though, really if it could be helped or avoided why set already hurt and upset children up for more shite in their lives ????

As for discrediting social workers they do a grand job of that all on their own they need no assistance from me.

edam · 23/06/2009 20:38

Hi spice - like you, I have gay male friends who are great dads, but in the case of both couples they are the biological fathers i.e. they donated sperm to lesbian couples. So the children do have mothers - in fact they have four equal parents. It's the adoption thing I have problems with, rather than children who have gay fathers from the start.

And I don't have any negative feelings about gay women adopting - this is definitely something about men. (My reaction, I mean.)

StayFrosty · 23/06/2009 20:39

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whereeverIlaymyhat · 23/06/2009 20:46

"as people cannot help who they fall in love with theirs is a battle worth fighting, as you could argue is that of your nephew's," I think you missed that off your quote.
Biologically I am assuming the boy is theirs ?
Therefore he has been born into that family, will know no different and will be proud of his mother.
Totally different situation from children who've known a mother and father figure and will look at other children and know they are in a different family.
The poor girl is terrified of men according to her GP's, they've had enough crap to deal with, why purposely give them more ?

edam · 23/06/2009 20:48

Spice, looking at your link, it's clear the body of research is rather small, obviously because formal gay adoption is relatively new. I'd imagine there probably aren't many large, rigorous and well designed studies that show whether adoption by gay men has any particular impact, positive or negative.

My gut reaction isn't to do with all the different areas of stigma they identify, about gender confusion or sexual identity, or abuse (there's plenty of that carried out by heterosexual biological fathers, sadly).

It's about the lack of a mother. Yes, I know men are parents too and a minority make a very good job of being the primary carer, but still...

MildredRoper · 23/06/2009 21:03

Do those of you who don't agree with gay adoption for whatever reason think that a childhood spent in care is preferable?

I'm not talking about any individual cases, it's a general question.

I don't think there are that many people of any orientation willing or able to adopt older children. Stability and permanence are so important to a child's wellbeing.

SomeGuy · 23/06/2009 21:21

Gay men are different though edam.

Notsotired · 23/06/2009 21:21

If there was no such thing as forced adoption then most of the arguments would be dispelled.

If I couldn't look after my son, I would want my sister or my parents to look after him and I would not want any doo-gooder type social worker interfering with my family looking after my son.

If my son were expected to live with a gay couple. 2 Gay men is not what I would agree with and I would be firmly opposed to it. 2 women can go, provided I met them and agreed with them taking my son in.

I am not homophobic. I accept the gay people as they are, they can do what they like as long as it doesn't affect me and my family. If I choose to mix with any gay people, I want to have the freedom to choose which ones I mix with and which ones I avoid. I don't want any pro-gay bigot choosing for me.

I also don't want any gay bloke undermining my family and making choices for my son (including when he can and can't see his real family) which the gay blokes can legally do (thanks to the corrupt secret family courts).

This adoption has enough argument to cause the adoption to be stopped, but the social worker "need" for social experiments are better met than the child maintaining the needed links to his (and her) family.

OP posts:
cyberseraphim · 23/06/2009 21:27

Are they seriously saying that 46 is 'too old' to be the parent of a 5 year old ! How old are the SW's ? How old are their children? When is the age that they give their children up ? This has nothing to do with homophobia, although it's likely to increase homophobia.

Notsotired · 23/06/2009 21:36

To answer the question about a child staying in foster care..... if the child was in foster care and he saw his grandparents every weekend and most of (or some) of the holidays. If the foster carer and grandparents got on well and the children were able to accept that they couldn't stay with Granny and Grandad (knowing that the grandparents accepted and approved of the children staying where they were), then I think that the fostering idea could have been better than the gay blokes adopting the children.

What makes matters worse is these 2 men are knowingly taking 2 children, knowing that the family are against gay adoption and knowing that the children know the family....but the gay men still continue with the adoption. Why? I doubt I wold adopt ever, and more so because I would be worried that a family might not want to loose their children/grandchildren and I might be taking them. There is already so much lost trust in the word of a social worker (and rightly so) that I would want to find all the facts for myself.

There is a saying "blood is thicker than water". Where it came from, I have no idea, but the concept has every bit of value in instances like this.

OP posts:
hester · 23/06/2009 21:51

edam, you are right that the body of evidence is not large; it mainly relates to lesbian and gay biological parents. There is a big study starting this year (at Cambridge Uni) looking at gay male adoptive fathers - it will be fascinating to read the results, and very useful. While I can't agree with your instincts on gay adoptive dads, I do understand where they're coming from. I know lots of women who would share your instinctive distrust of male 'strangers' - including some lesbian mothers (doesn't make them right, though!)

When I was growing up it was commonly said (to us, as a multiracial family) that interracial relationships weren't fair to the children, as they 'wouldn't belong anywhere'. I think most people would think that a shocking statement now, and I hope that adults using the (real) problem of playground homophobia as a cover for their own is on the way out. I have to hope so, because I am a lesbian mother who hopes to adopt a dual heritage child soon - in so many ways, I will have to take a leap of faith and believe that the world is a good enough place to provide a welcoming home for my children.

On the issue of age, it's worth saying that I am as old (nearly!) as the grandmother in this case, and I am being assessed for a very young child. Usually social services prefer adoptive parents to be no more than 40 years older than any child they can adopt (though there can be exceptions) but this does NOT apply if grandparents are adopting. They ALWAYS look for family to take on a child before making them available for adoption. And the fashion right now is definitely to preserve contact with the birth family wherever possible. So there just has to be more to this story than the 'facts' provided by the grandparents and the Daily Mail. I'm not saying I know what, I'm not saying social services must have done the right thing; all I'm saying is that we can't reach judgment on the basis of what we have been told.

cyberseraphim · 23/06/2009 21:58

But is it not a statistical fact that men live shorter lives than women (no data on how gay/straight affects this !)

whereeverIlaymyhat · 23/06/2009 22:05

I have to hope so, because I am a lesbian mother who hopes to adopt a dual heritage child soon - in so many ways, I will have to take a leap of faith and believe that the world is a good enough place to provide a welcoming home for my children.

Whilst your intentions are no doubt pure and good, assuming you will want a relationship for yourself I cannot think of a more selfish act tbh.

Spero · 23/06/2009 22:08

Notsotired - you said: 'I don't think adoption was the right decision in this case'

Have you read the case papers? Have you carried out a psychological assessment of the children and/or their biological family?

You have made a decision knowing probably 1/1000th of what has gone on in this case.

I can think of any number of good reasons why the children should have been adopted:
for eg the grandparents won't keep the mother away, even if she is off her head on drink and/or drugs.

I can think of one VERY good reason why the grandparents now don't have contact - they have explicitly stated they can't understand or accept why two gay men are allowed to adopt. Now there is a lovely message they'll be sharing with the children over tea and cake if they see them.

I'm heartily fed up of people bleating on about evil social workers and how it is wrong to adopt in certain circs when said people know less than nothing about what went on in a case.

spicemonster · 23/06/2009 22:10

You can't think of a more selfish act than for hester to adopt whereverIlaymyhat? I'm not often lost for words but that has rather shocked me into silence.

Jesus.

hester · 23/06/2009 22:11

Sorry, whereverIlaymyhat? You mean that to adopt as a lesbian mother is the ultimate selfish act?

Do you have any idea how many dual heritage children are waiting for adoptive parents? Would you rather they languished in care than came into my home?

StewieGriffinsMom · 23/06/2009 22:12

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StayFrosty · 23/06/2009 22:13

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StewieGriffinsMom · 23/06/2009 22:15

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wannaBe · 23/06/2009 22:25

Wow, I am quite staggered by some of the views expressed on this thread.

?I am not homophobic. I accept the gay people as they are, they can do what they like as long as it doesn't affect me and my family. If I choose to mix
with any gay people, I want to have the freedom to choose which ones I mix with and which ones I avoid. I don't want any pro-gay bigot choosing for me.? Really? You?re not homophobic?

Fwiw I can kind of see why people might have reservations over whether it is the right thing to allow gay couples to adopt. Similarly some people have reservations over whether single parents should be allowed to adopt, or disabled people, or a black family being able to adopt a white child or vice versa, and I don?t think that those reservations should be just dismissed as prejudiced, after all it is natural for people to think of a family as being a mum and dad, rather than two mums/dads/one single parent.

However there is a vast difference between expressing an opinion that you don?t necessarily think that agay couple should adopt, and having those opinions challenged and possibly being educated, and spouting such quotes as ?Frankly if somebody gave my kids to 2 gay men I'd haunt the social worker forever.?. You really cannot make that statement in one breath and then claim not to be homophobic in the next.

Fwiw I think it?s worth bearing in mind that although the family courts are secret, and they do prevent information from being reported, the fact they?re secret does mean that the grandparents could be claiming anything, and there?s no way of knowing how accurate it is.

The gay adoption aside, I really don?t think that we should be jumping to conclusions as to whether the adoption should/shouldn?t have gone ahead based n what we?ve read about it in the daily mail.

whereeverIlaymyhat · 23/06/2009 22:26

hester we are never going to agree so I'll wish you all the best.

wannaBe · 23/06/2009 22:31

wherever do you have children? Tell me, how will you feel if one day any of those children tells you they are gay?

Spero · 23/06/2009 22:33

I've been working in child protection for over ten years now.

this is what I know

a lot of parents love drink and drugs more than they love their children

a lot of women love violent abusive men who hurt their children, more than they love their children

children need at least one adult in their lives who loves them, will fight for them, be their support and their advocate. That person can be gay, straight a blood relative, whatever. It really, really doesn't matter.

You cannot draw conclusions about what is right or wrong about a case based on a)what you read in the newspaper or b) what is told to you by one party who probably has a pretty big axe to grind.

And if you think you can, you are stupid beyond my ability to describe in words.

whereeverIlaymyhat · 23/06/2009 22:34

My cousin is gay, she has a fantastic life, is a good person and has no desire to have children.
As an individual I would not have a word said against her and indeed if she wanted to use a donor to have a child of her own, no problem with that either.
My issue is with making the already scarred children's lives any harder than they have to be. Is that the answer to finding homes for the difficult to adopt children putting all the people with an uphill battle together ?

edam · 23/06/2009 22:35

thing is, the people who have reservations about white people being able to adopt Black or mixed-race kids are the ones in charge of SS. That's a big factor in so many Black and mixed-race kids languishing in care.

So, according to SS, skin colour is THE most important thing about any child or potential adoptive parent... hard to rationalise that with the assumption that any concerns about gay adoption (in my case, specifically male) are automatically homophobia. If one example of something that often attracts prejudice - race - is so important it can be a complete bar to adoption, why is another example - sexual identity - beyond question?