Do you actually know anyone in real life who is in favour of ID Cards?

[AtheneNoctua]

I am baffled. It seems everyone hates them either on grounds of cost or invation of civil liberties.

But go on, enlighten me, are there real people (MPS excluded from the definition of Real People) who want them rolled out?

Related article here about the Tories warning the bidders that the scheme will be scrapped and that they shouldn't invest heavily in a contract that is going to be cancelled if when they win the general election.

invoice, not email! I don't actually list my bank details on every email, that would be very daft indeed...

You could model the risk by saying

risk = "probability of breach" * "loss given breach"

If probability of breach is very high per status quo then your risk is high.

If you have a highly secure system with very low probab of breach then you might be better off.

Even so, you can make "loss given breach" low for centralised dbase by have clever IT architecture (separate sub-dbases).

This is for the specialists but I have no doubt that the govt needs to treat ID as a national security asset that needs to be protected. Our children will be living in the information age after all.

what, like the theoretical 'national herd' that they talk about when foot and mouth strikes? Because what that actually means is the government is entitled to come and shoot your cow that you've fed and watered and cared for...

I think the government is the last organisation I would trust with my data.

And, toughdaddy, there is another key issue to this debate. And that is the cost of it. That (for me) is the biggest issue.

The government has proven they are not responsible keepers of our data. They all have proven they are financially irresponsible. Still no one has demonstrated how this card will fulfill the purpose it is intended for. And, it's going to be scrapped by the forthcoming tory government anyway.

So why not scrap it now?

If the government feels they some more data about me, they should incorporate that data into another existing form of ID (passport, DL, central database) There is no need for another card to carry.

I am ambivalent about them.

Would be in support of a DNA database though

I think you mioght find the government already have your data Athene. Attempting to close the door after the horse has bolted.

Haven't read the whole thread but disagree with ID cards for all the reasons people were raising in the early part.

But to add to the rant about the cost of them, I think it is preposterous that if you are young enough/unfortunate enough/have-moved-so that-you-need-to-replace-it to have a photo driving licence, then you need to spend £20 every 10 years to get the photo changed.

I paid for my licence when I passed my test in 1984. It was valid until 2031. Why should I have to pay to keep on getting it updated?

The cost is one (valid) issue, the purpose another. To some extent we are debating more than one issue: whether we have a separate card from passport, how the info is stored, what info is stored. I think that the issue, risks, costs and justification have not been properly debated publically. And both sides tend to scare monger. I don't think that there is much more for me to say on this debate now.

I glad that we all discussed it in a civilised manner.

bye for now

I'm all for them, having only lived in countries previously where everyone had them, and found them very useful for proving who I was in banks, post offices etc. For the life of me I can't see what the fuss is about!! Not everyone drives, passports are somewhat impractical for lugging everywhere, and sometimes you need to prove who you are. Simple!

I thought the only real issue was that these things are fine within societies where individual rights are protected - problem is we have no way of knowing if we will be living in a liberal democracy or under the Taliban in 20 years time

AnnieLobeseder, I believe every other country that has a system of compulsory identity cards also has a written constitution that safeguards privacy. The UK doesn't.

The relationship between the state and the citizen isn't properly defined in UK law and it is far too easy for the government to expand the uses of the card and lower the safeguards on data sharing.

Also, it won't work.

And I am repeating myself now. So I will properly depart the conversation.

I have never hd a problem proving who I am and I don't drive and I don't lug my passport around with me. I don't want an ID card nor do I know anyone who does.

Like Porto I have one in Belgium, but mine cannot be used to travel within Europe. It has my photo, name, address, dob and place of birth and that is it. The gemeente (town council) who issue it hold no more info on me than that.

It is rumoured that the police come around to check that you live where you say; but I have lived here nearly 3 years, and haven't spoken to them yet. They may just have seen our name by the door and gone away again.

My objection to ID cards is that the government on current showing are not responsible enough or careful enough to hold that amount of data on us. MPs are advised not to file their tax returns on line, as it is not secure, so how are they proposing to keep my data safe? They allow DVLA to sell info; have lost child benefit records; and records of serving HM Forces personnel, so why should we trust them? Every IT project this govt signs up for goes overtime, over budget and doesn't perform as planned. What is going to change?

Thing is while we can all add up the cons, who is talking about the pros?

Can we even consider them?

First one that springs to mind is kids and alcohol..?

"I think you mioght find the government already have your data Athene. Attempting to close the door after the horse has bolted. "

And I think you might find, if you read the thread, that I have already made this point on more than one occassion.

My objection is the cost of collecting, protecting, and maintaining the proposed data. And furthermore, as we have both pointed out, they already have this information so why do I need to carry it around on this card.

Until such time that we the taxpayers can be convinced that this card will fulfill its purpose(s) then I think it is not worth our hard earned ££ which could be better spent or God forbid SAVED elsewhere.

govt needs to step back and explain it's data security strategy (if they have one!) and how ID cards are part of that strategy.

AtheneN - there will be a cost to protecting data whatever we do. The current systems/dbases are clearly not well designed re:security. Whether we pay directly or pay through our taxes, is a secondary point IMO.

Stop talking down to me. That is obvious.. and just my point. This ID card is not part of an organised and worthy plan that will add value and help prevent or even reduce terrorism or id fraud. It is just a great big whopping waste of money -- for which we are unlikly to add any value at all. Hence, MY opposition. Other oppose the ID Card for other reasons. I see their point, but am not quite so pationate as they are. But I am wholly and complete opposed on the basis of huge cost and a lack of confidence that it will fulfill it's purpose.

AtheneN- I have rarely addressed my points directly to you and I can sincerely say that it's not my intention to offend or talk down to you; just to debate the issue.

The point I am making is that IMO doing nothing/status quo isn't really an option in the medium/long term because the current systems are insecure which I think is a diff point to yours.

I will leave the thread (again) as I think I have exhausted my points.