Do you actually know anyone in real life who is in favour of ID Cards?

[AtheneNoctua]

I am baffled. It seems everyone hates them either on grounds of cost or invation of civil liberties.

But go on, enlighten me, are there real people (MPS excluded from the definition of Real People) who want them rolled out?

Related article here about the Tories warning the bidders that the scheme will be scrapped and that they shouldn't invest heavily in a contract that is going to be cancelled if when they win the general election.

terrible spelling and grammar above!

In some countries you are required to get an I.D. card at the age of 16; it is practically a rite of passage. The government pays for it as it is mandatory for all.

It includes information such as name, place of birth, sex, home address, social insurance number, nationality, date of birth, blood group, photograph. The I.D. card number itself it used to crosslink all of your govt-based documents e.g. health record, etc.

It does have its utility and serves as formal I.D. as not everybody has a passport/drivers licence. So in addition to needing it for official business, you also need it at a bank to do any transaction. If you have an accident, your ID number lets them know who you are, contact info for the family, blood type for emergency operations/blood transfusions.

In terms of the info, yes there is concern if it is lost but there are many forms of identity theft/leaked data.

I guess I am sitting on the fence on this one and can see pros/cons. The one aspect I would stress is that if it does go ahead it should be mandatory for all and the govt should foot the bill for a scheme it wants.

Dittany- I am saying that ID cards are potentially part of enhanced authentification and security. I am NOT saying that they would have prevented July 7th bombing. You have only identified one threat. There are multiple dimensions to crime prevention and ID security is only one aspect. I think the whole issue is badly debated by politicians. Am saying that our personal ID needs improved security in order to prevent all sorts of fraudulent activity given the fact that it is so much easier to obtain someone's profile and clone them. We are protective about what data the govt holds yet we give away data online to less secure entities who are not accountable to us.

The phrase ID cards is emotive but we have accepted the need for passports and bank cards in the past. ID cards are potentially just a consolidation and improved version of these.

As we give away our personal data more easily online, we will need more robust security around personal ID.

I am also saying that there are far grater threats to our civil liberties IMO, such as Google, Facebook, wireless networks etc. Yet ID cards and the role of Govt is the thing that exercises us most.

Dittany- I have no professional interests in ID cards. Through my work, however, I can see how the threat to our banking system for example is great from international criminal. Even now so much dirty money is imported daily. We cannot preserve our financial and ultimately political integrity if we don't advance our systems very fast. Again politicians will not admit that our (financial) systems are already polluted. ID cards, I hasten to add are only one aspect of the necessary upgrade.

My fervour comes from the fact that we seem to be stuck in a very narrow argument that misses the big threats. By all means we need to hold govt to account but lets have the big debate about security, drugs and money laundering and the fact that we are currently NOT in control. And let's talk about the threats that our children will face and not just use the issue as the usual political football.

They're another machination for Labour to waste even more money.

Dittany- i think we crossed posts.

One example of application of ID cards:
Sooner or later the authorities will need to be able to audit every single cashflow in our system and link it clearly identified and verifiable individuals. They will need also need to interrogate and cross reference other systems to identify risks so that they can then focus their policing.

Fact is that the world is a far more dangerous place now and we will have to trust someone to protect our interests.

Maybe the govt should be more open and have the broader security debate first.

It is amazing how we expect the Govt to protect us when something goes wrong but we seem a bit naive (not wishing to offend) about what the threats are?

The Chip and PIN cards were introduced with a whole lot of fanfare about how it was meant to protect the customer. All they have done is saved the bank millions in fraud as the onus is now upon the individual to prove that they didn't disclose the PIN numbers of the cards - surely the ID cards are just a wolf in sheep's clothing ...

Im for ID cards. but dont want to pay for them - I think they should be free.

part of the reason for them is that atm people are expected to have either a driving licence or passport to prove thier identity. What if you don't drive and have no intention of ever leaving the country?

Dittany- less and less transactions are hard cash.

How and when and what type of "ID card" system will be introduced, I don't know due to politics. What i feel certain about is that ID verification will become far far more sophisticated in our children's generation;. Could be Iris scan machines, some sort of DNA x-ray or a card carrying that info. But whether it is a hard card or a scan it will happen, I feel certain about that. b Technological advance always brings risks and fear but it is a question of how we adapt and adopt. But the challenges of technology will only increase the need for ID verification and no one can convince me that we will just carry on as we are?

well I only use cash - except for paying bills online........all my shopping is done with coins and notes

And what you perceive now as the main threat to liberty will probably not be so.

LynetteS- I agree that it would be more palatable if Gov pays. They would probably argue that if it replace passport then we pay. But they have to sort out operational detail to make it politically acceptable.

FAQ -

Im not in favour of them (in fact Im really anti id cards) and no one I know has mentioned a postitve view about them

Dittany- do you think that some level of systematic and manual audit isn't taking place right now? Trouble is it is not as efficient as it might be which benefits no one.

If you are taking out too much hard cash from bank, teller may ask you (subtly or directly) what it is for. You have a right not to tell him but he will probably then ask his mger to speak to you in privacy. He will let you know that it is a routine question of money laudering etc. and you don't have to answer but he will just need to flag this with the authorities. The authorities will then discard or further investigate which mean a phone tap, or a break in to your house or such like in the extreme. Of course we all know that some "liberties" are not compromised in order to reduce security risk. The current state of relative inefficiency does not benefit anyone as the authorites are more likely to waste time on the wrong/innocent person and infringe their liberties.

Yurtgirl- as above whether hard physical ID card or some sort of personal bio scan, it is only a matter of time- I believe our children will see it as an obvious solution to the challenges/threats that they will face.

Less and less bank branches will be available in time. More online stuff which means no real choice but to exists electronically. SO some of the talk about choice as to whether to use this or that online application will not infact be a real choice. It will be a bit like existing now without a bank account at all. For me that is a theoretical choice. Possible but not practical.

Tangential points:

-Wanted to ask whether you guys heard the radio 4 programme about the scam where people's house get sold without them knowing?

-What do you guys think about Google Street view where people can see photos of the front of your house?

We are all hanging out there on cyberspace, aren't we?

Toughdaddy - I still don't get how exactly ID cards will solve what problem? Can see you are in favour for some (to me) nebuluous reason to do with online security but I really don't understand exactly what it is ID cards will do to keep us safe from what.

Would be very interested to hear exactly what it is you think they will do.

And how that would be impossible for criminals to crack. Strikes me that criminals are good at identifying any weakness in any system, that's kind of their modus operandii - if we give up our ID, we are fucked once they get hold of it. Difficult enough now if you suffer identity fraud, how the hell will you manage if someone has managed to replicate your fingerprints and/or iris scan?