The MPs are really stressed

[FabulousBakerGirl]

Bless.

The rules were fine.

The MPs took the piss.

Apparently the media, the public and the papers are to blame.

Oh dear.

I agree that we may need to look at their base salary and that perhaps it isn't in line with the level of responsibility they have (but let's not forget that they have 14 weeks off a year and very generous pension before we feel too sorry for them. But the wording of the expenses legislation is very clear. As far as I can see a lot of the MPs who are now coming out squealing (and I include Ms Kirkbride in that number) are those who have bent the rules to breaking point.

I am allowed to claim reasonable expenses in my job but I know what is appropriate and what isn't. If I put in dodgy claims which I knew I could get away with, I'd lose my job. I'm still failing to understand why it should be any different for an MP.

Some good points spicem. But if your boss nodded and winked that he/she would keep you at off market salary because you have liberal perks/expenses system then one might look at it in a different way. And if the accounts dept (Fees office) called you up to say that you were underclaiming then you might see things a little differently. Maybe not you but some people might start seeing expense limits as effectively part of the package. Infact, I always had the impression that MPs were not well paid but that the job was full of perks. You were always allowed to pay the wife/husband a slary for opening the mail; that sort of thing. Now all of a sudden it is a public outrage. The journalists are a little hpyrocritical as this is not all news to anyone. And why are they trickling out the info on Julie Kirkbride rather than giving us one shot. I am not a Tory voter but I still stand for fainess and even MPs should have employee rights and not have summary dismissals as have been happening. I preferred measured abnd carefully considered reactions. Let's deal with the fraudsters but let's not lynch them all.

I'm not sure we're necessarily changing views on a whim. While it has long been known that MPs have a generous allowance and expenses system, it's only now that we've managed to discover exactly what they've been up to - before, it was mired in secrecy. I don't mind an MP employing a family member to open their post if that's what they're actually doing. I do damn well mind when all they're doing is perpetrating a scam.

It's the difference between an employee of Cadbury's being allowed to have some chocolate for free and taking the occasional Wispa for themselves, while another employee goes in with a truck and takes it out by the box-load then sells it on to others.

The outrage is about the depth and breadth of the money-grabbing, plus some disgust at the contempt some of the MPs obviously hold the voters in with their choice of actions and subsequent mealy-mouthed justifications for why they should get away with it.

Don't forget that parliament spent hundreds of thousands of pounds on appeals to try to prevent this information being released, even though the information commissioner said it should be and the law was clear that it was in the public interest.

Plus ca change ...

Well trainee lawyers and accountants are paid more than MPs. I think they should earn between 100k and 250k and we should then demand more accountability. Paying 54k makes them very vulnerable to all sorts. I can think of so many things to do to earn more than 54k with way way less hassle and respsonsibility e.g. a bit of IT coding, trainee acctnt/lawyer, junior mgmt professional at blue chip, midd level civil servant the list goes on.

If these MPs are really employable in those jobs, perhaps they could go off and do them now then?

After 30 odd years in the world of academe I am getting terribly bored with colleagues droning on about how much they could earn in the private sector (funny that you never seem to get any interviews there then). MPs are no different. The current lot have shown clearly enough that they care about money, so the only thing standing between them and a lucrative career can hardly be selflessness.

Yes, there are other professions that pay better than being an MP. There are lots that pay better than being a soldier, a teacher or a nurse, too (being an MP pays better than all of those I suspect).

I would hope that people don't enter into politics solely to earn lots of money; there must still be some who do it because they think they can make a positive difference. £54K is a nice salary by most people's standards and it's, what, two or three times the average wage of the people who vote for them?

Moreover, and to be frank, you don't need much in the way of education or training to be an MP (or even president of the US, as has been proven many times over). The same cannot be said for many of the other jobs that have been mentioned here. Sure, it can involve long hours but so can teaching, nursing or being in the armed forces.

Cory and Snorbs- I just think that law makers should not be made too vulnerable to business and other outside interests. If we just paid them the basic 54k, it will be intersting to see whether that encourages more diversity in Parliament? Or would it be mostly benefit those who have made money and fancy a political career. Ultimately, it is an opportunity to make positive change. But I would certainly be happy to keep it as a well paid job and focus more on getting the max out of patliament and more on MPs accountability e.g. recall mechanisms etc.

Information is 'trickling out' because the Telegraph has thousands of documents to go through. And because journalists on other titles are now looking as well.

MPs could have avoided all this had they been honest, and not wasted even more of our money trying to cover it up.

And of course it is a legitimate news story! We've never had the detail before. Blimey, toughdaddy, are you a prospective parly candidate who is thinking again now the gravy train has been derailed or something?

Back in the real world, a salary of 65k puts one among the very top percentage of earners. MPs are supposed to represent the public, not a few people who work in the City.

Those who are leaving are going away with a golden goodbye, too.

thanksforthememories

My heart bleeds.

ToughDaddy - that article was from 2004 which is why I linked to it. To show that they were fiddling their expenses then and 5 years on, they're still doing it!

And our MPs are paid in line with our European neighbours - only they don't claim 3x their base salary in expenses! European MPs pay

I thought it was £64K, not £54K.

'Well trainee lawyers and accountants are paid more than MPs.'

Where? Certainly not in Scotland. More like £35K. In Edinburgh, the third most expensive city in the UK.

'MPs are supposed to represent the public, not a few people who work in the City.'

Whose tax levels they raised. Yet many were claiming so much in tax-free expenses as to bring their income up to same levels.

It is 64k now expat. It was 54k in the article I linked to which is 5 years old meaning that MPs have awarded themselves a 10k pay rise over the last ten years. Hurrah - G&Ts all round!

And trainee accountants do not earn anywhere near that amount. They earn around 40k in London at a big 4 firm.

ToughDaddy: why do you say trainees earn more? They don't. For those recruited into top firms, as spicemonster says, the average salary is around £40k. HOWEVER, in England the minimum is £18K and in Scotland there is no minimum. I know of trainee lawyers who were being paid £11K.

Is the amount that MPs are paid the same across the board, or does it vary according to performance? Surely in an ideal society, people earn what they deserve.

Yes, bleh! I worked as legal secretary in Scotland for some years and the trainee salary is much dependent on the field the trainee is in and which firm.

But anywhere near £50K?

PMSL.

Nowhere near it.

And they have to work all the hours God sends because they are dependent on their employer in order to fully qualify.

Also let's not forget that many MPs also earn a similar amount as their base salary acting as non-exec directors or consultants to private companies (where the information is available - they have to start declaring that other income in July I think). So that's 2, maybe 3 positions, each netting them around 70k on top of their base salary. Plus an average of 120k expenses. Gravy train anyone?

Pretty much, if you're going into something like criminal law, immigration, human rights ... to start off with you're paid VERY little. It's only for Corporate Law etc. that the salaries are higher. For trainee barristers it's the same, and in Ireland it's illegal for them to be paid, they have to rely on generous "bonuses" and "gifts" from their masters for their pay.

And as for bankers, it's generally only those more senior that get huge salaries.

For example, a graduate trainee in M&A is generally paid around £35K, working 100 hour weeks, and may (if they're really good) get a bonus. Even interns work about 6/7 days a week, from very early in the morning until late at night/overnight. It is only after they have been working like that for about 8 to 10 years and they start bringing in clients and deals that the salary increases in line with the revenues they generate.

As Snorbs said, you don't need any specific qualifications or experience to be an MP.

On Question Time a few weeks ago, Menzies Campbell said that when he joined Parliament he was told the pay was about average for a GP. Then a few years later he was told it was equivalent to the pay of a headteacher at a large Comprehensive.

Why should a bog standard back bench MP be paid the same as a GP or a secondary school headteacher when they don't require anything like the same number years of training or experience?

A prime example is the daughter of Blair's lackey Lord Gould, who wanted to be chosen to stand for election at the grand old age of 22 - how on earth could someone like her be worth the same as a GP or a secondary school headteacher? Thank goodness she wasn't selected.

Most MPs are not capable of earning £64k outside Parliament - that's why they stay there.

Frankly, if MPs were truly underpaid there would be a shortage of people wishing to stand - I haven't noticed any such shortage.

"surely we should save our sympathy for them rather than someone who's duck house could be repossessed" - my favourite quote from this thread.

Yes the papers are going over the top and suggesting any expense is unjustified. But I disagree that MPs are underpaid, even if they don't have extra jobs on the side. The vast majority of MPs are not doing a responsible job, they just walk into whichever lobby the whips send them to. They are actually overpaid. And lets not forget the generous pension arrangements when talking about their salaries - or the payments to those who stand down.

A few get involved with Parliamentary Committees or put forward Private Member Bills or at least try to do a decent job for their constituents (and let's not forget the staff they have tto help them with that, all paid for on top of their salary). It would be good to find a way of rewarding the hard working - I come back to my suggestion of preformance bonuses voted on by their constituents . Or you could have attendance fees for committees.

As in any career some people move into more responsible posts (like ministers) and get paid more. Whether we pay them enough is more debatable.

Exactly Metella. Not just the qualifications, but also the cost of the qualifications.

To train as a lawyer:
3 year law degree (£3k per year) or other degree + GDL (average course fees: £5k)
Legal Practice Certificate/Bar Vocational Course (average course fees: between about £7K and £11.5k)
www.lawcareers.net/Information/Features/Detail.aspx?r=1240

The pay reflects the fact that it is expensive and difficult to qualify to be one.

In Scotland the LLB programme is 4 years.

Then the diploma course.

I know it's bad etiquette, but there was another thread, purportedly by the wife of an MP...

this woman was saying at that her husband was earning so little compared to what he would earn elsewhere, but a little later she also said that he had tried to get another job...