Experts unite to warn parents of bedsharing dangers - new advice from FSID

[Caz10]

I apologise whole-heartedly if this topic upsets anyone, I really don't mean to. I am just curious to as to people's views on this.

I get the FSID email and this was their headline article.

I understand all the guidelines re if you are a smoker, been drinking etc, but this seeems to advise no co-sleeping AT ALL. I co-slept with my dd (now 18mths) quite a lot - I thought I would do so again if we had a dc2 - but that piece worries me a bit?

Just wondering what others thought?

It seems to contradict the advice coming from eg Unicef

Roseoftheorient, Japanese ideas on this sound lovely, that's just how I did it and I got all the quizzical looks when I said I had no routine!

my daughter died aged 13 days in her sleep next to me and her dad. a reason was never found and she was classed as dying from sudden infant death.we did not roll on her, had not had a drink, but there isnt a day that goes by that i dont regret having her in our bed. had 2 ds since but they never ever came in our bed to sleep.
i am not having a go at the co-sleepers, but god if i could turn the clock back

i am sure, gardeningmum. my deepest sympathies.

gardeningmum, I am so sorry for your loss, and so sorry if my comments upset you in any way
I do not want to upset anyone who has suffered such a terrible thing and I apologise for generalizing.

gm05, so for you - but as it sounds like it was a true case of SIDS, then it possibly wouldn't have made any difference where she was, sadly.

poppity, if the study is available to be freely read on the internet, I think you are ok to show it on here. It's only subscription-only material that would be troublesome

thankyou for you comments. in my head i know she did not die because of where she was, but its just 1 more thing to feel guilty about i guess.

head and heart are not friends, sometimes. i'm so sorry gm.

so true, sorry ladies going to have to leave this thread now, as its getting too painful. enjoy your discussion

I have to log in to see it, so not sure

I hope you are ok GM, I sneaked a look at your profile pics and saw your gorgeous girl. All your DCs are beautiful.

I havent read the whole thread but SIDS is unexplained death and can happen anywhere. Suffocation by overlay or bedding etc during co=sleeping is not SIDS (and rare if sensible precautions are taken) and therefore their argument is flawed. How many babies die of SIDS in a cot or pram?

The trouble is - that as I understand it there is no objective way of distinguishing between SIDS and suffocation at a post mortem.

In the US the "back to sleep" campaign seems to have resulted in more deaths of prone infants being classified as suffocation rather than SIDS.

Alarm bells always ring for me when "sophisticated statistical modelling techniques" are applied to data that is so inherently flawed. The truth is that every loss is a tragedy, and no answers might ever be found.

gardeningmum

So sorry for your awful loss and this has brought up sad feelings.

In one sense, the sensationalism of the FSID position has also contributed to that 'guilt' that parents in your awful position describe. There is no correlation - as someone earlier said - between co-sleeping (on its own) and SIDS. Even in that small study, half of cases were in cots.

The reality is no-one really knows why these poor little mites had to die: lots of potential causes are being investigated in the research literature. But the evidence so far seems to suggest that safe co-sleeping, in itself, is not an overwhelming causal factor.

So by hinting that it is, rather oversensationally, the FSID are not only worrying women who probably don't have anything to worry about, but suggesting to those who have lost babies that they should have done something different. But there is scant evidence that that is the case. So I'm doubly cross now with their message.

I am going to email MNHQ and ask them to get Deborah Jackson and/or the FSID to answer questions...

The other issue here is that, with my baby, even if co-sleeping did increase the very tiny risk of SIDS - I would still have been right to do it. The only place she would settle as a newborn was on our chests.

Every time we take our babies in cars there is also a tiny risk of a tragedy. But we still do it.

Aitch - yes, you're right, I should be explicit as to why I asked to de-subscribe. I will e mail them.

Carmensandiago "I agree with much of what people here have said. Additionally, I'd like to know how these surveys were funded. I've been told that formula companies and cot bedding manufacturers have funded much of the research into SIDS. They are hardly unbiased in the area. Does anyone have any better information about this?"

I do.

Following my daughter's death and with huge support here on mumsnet, tens of thousands of pounds were raised to fund such research; grieving families and those around them also raise money and like all charities they are always looking for money and there is always a short fall and much of the research is funded by people like me and like many of you - by public donation and by private funds. FSIDS is a charity set up by a grieving grandmother following the death of an 18 month old of unknown causes.But yes, additional funds come from corporations. The money is not only used for research but also for education and to support parents following the death of a baby.

Personally, if Joe Bloggs Tobacco or the raving Looney Communist party funded research that led to a definitive answer and a stop to sids, I personally would cross the seven seas to thank them- whatever I think of cigarettes or rampant communism; a baby saved is a baby saved. And dear God do we need some answers.

here this was started by LittleLapin

Instead of arguing statistics or getting angry about the latest findings - why not ring the sids helpline and ask? fsids

Aitch and Blu - I also found that email offensive and will ring them and tell them. I could not bear to read the story and deleted the email straight away.

I don't understand why any baby would be sleeping on a sofa or in an armchair.

I co-slept because I breastfed. I would be more interested in the findings of this article if it distinguished the percentage of babies dying from SIDS who were breastfed and cosleeping.

I am so sorry for your losses gglimpopo and gardeningmum I think you're both very brave to post on this thread. I hope what I have to say doesn't upset you.

wannebe - I wanted to answer your post earlier but I was at work and I find it tricky to respond to things that require a bit of thought in the office. Personally (and I can only speak for myself) I have had such a strong reaction to this PR piece not because I'm trying to justify my own choices, but because, as others have pointed out, these statistics don't tell us anything new or useful. I would like to see the statistics split between babies who died in bed and those who died on chairs and sofas. I would like to see some analysis between breastfed babies and formula fed. I'd also like to know how many were squashed down the bottom of a bed or under a pillow or a drunk parent (although that information is never likely to come to light).

But most of all, I'd like some acknowledgement that lots and lots of mums co-sleep and for FSID to give advice based on that reality. My concern is that by condemning co-sleeping out of hand, they run the risk of scaring mothers into not daring to asking for advice on how to best co-sleep. And I worry that could actually result in even more tragedy.

I never intended to cosleep. It was the result of a baby who had dreadful reflux and was an awful sleeper. I felt terribly guilty about it and used to lie to people about doing it. I certainly never dared to tell my MW or HV. That's got to be wrong, surely.

I agree with those who have said that if you scare mothers off co-sleeping the result will be that they will fall asleep while feeding in a chair or on a sofa and that is even more dangerous.

I co-slept with mine and did what others said - baby had its own bedding, the mattress is firm, I was in the middle, baby protected from falling out by mesh guard. It felt safe and right to me.

gglimpopo and gardeningmum I am so sorry for your losses, and I hope that this thread hasn't been difficult for you - I wasn't sure about starting it in the first place, but I too was really shocked by the email and felt compelled to click through and read further. I think that the discussion that's been going on has been measured and sensible, and hopefully useful.
It's every parent's worst fear, so I think that FSIDS should acknowledge what an important and emotive subject they are discussing - it's just NOT comparable with something like weaning guidelines - and realise that harsh, poorly backed up advice can do so much harm.

ggglimpopo I understand what you are saying re the funding, but is it kept completely separate? Having the MAM logo splashed all over the place makes me think that I am not giving my daughter the best protection from SIDS because I couldn't get her to take a dummy - I didn't want her to have one, because it seemed to contradict the breastfeeding advice, then I saw MAM everywhere on the FSIDS stuff and in that haze of new mum/first baby madness started really panicking when I couldn't get her to keep one in her mouth!

I also remember WEEKS when I camped out on the sofa, with dd in a moses basket next to the sofa - I was reeling from exhaustion and for the 1st couple of days out of hospital she was only sleeping in 20 min blocks, then up to about an hour at a time. I was lying out on the sofa, lifting her when she cried, falling asleep (accidentally) with her on the sofa, waking up in a cold sweat, putting her back in her basket...repeat every hour for a few weeks! So stupid - but all because I was adamant I couldn't have her in the bedb because of the stuff I'd read and been told re cot death!

BonsoirAnna, I think the babies in chairs and sofas are where exhausted mums fall asleep feeding them, mainly.

RoseoftheOrient I am glad you said that about how mums "do" naps/sleeping in Japan - I thought I was the only one and my NCT friends certainly can't understand it when I say what I do!

Caz10 - your story is a perfect example of my earlier point. What a shame you felt you had to do that

Thank you for clarifying, ggglimpopo. I'm so sorry for your loss.

I absolutely understand that we need to find out much more about the cause of SIDS and have a lot of respect for those who have contributed to that research.

My concern like many here is twofold: Firstly, that many of the deaths included in the statistics aren't really sudden deaths - there are obvious causes, such as falling out of bed and suffocation. I don't think these statistics help anyone who has lost a baby to SIDS, or to parents who safely co-sleep. It is impossible to establish from this whether or not 'safe' co-sleeping actually is risky unless that in itself is studied, taking out all the sofa/armchair/drunk/smoking parents statistics which are absolutely irrelevant to safe cosleeping imo. Falling asleep in an armchair isn't comparable to co-sleeping safely without excess bedding in bed.

I also don't think it helps what is apparently a very important, reputable charity to endorse unclear or inaccurate information.

Wannabe - I'm cosleeping with my third baby as I did with my first two, but I'm happy to listen to clear evidence and then decide what to do. This evidence sadly isn't clear enough to make a decision because it doesn't measure the riskiness of cosleeping safely in a kingsize bed, baby on back with no bedding or pillows around the baby and no alcohol or cigarettes. If there is clear evidence that this behaviour is risky, then I may well modify my behaviour. But as far as I can see, there isn't. And indeed there is evidence that this behaviour may well be very beneficial to myself and to my baby.

Which leads me to my second concern. Being told to do something 'by experts' isn't enough for me. I need to see the reasoning behind that. And I need to be clear that the experts are independent. We often talk on here about how we can't trust formula companies to promote breastfeeding - it's obvious that it's at odds with their corporate mission. I'm so sorry, but I am going to be cynical that Mam, a DUMMY manufacturer sponsor SIDS information and suddenly the information is that sucking a dummy might prevent a baby from dying of cot death. Now, maybe this study is accurate and maybe there is evidence that this is the case, but sadly, the presence of these biased corporations will damage the credibility of those studies.

The original article seems to refer repeatedly to 'unexpected' deaths rather than 'unexplained' deaths, which is what I thought SIDS was?

Cases about 'co-sleeping' I see written up in the paper here - our local coroner is fervently anti co-sleeping - are where parents have got up to feed a baby in the night and fallen asleep on the sofa and the baby has ended up wedged into a space not suitable for sleeping - hence the 'Do not sleep on the sofa'. But these parents didn't deliberately set out to sleep on the sofa, they probably fell asleep accidentally.

And surely that's not SIDS?