Government database containing details of all our children to be halted - but not abandoned...

[edam]

anyone else think this database is a very bad idea?

Appalling that they have breached the confidentiality of so many children - but they won't abandon the project. Hundreds of thousands of people will have access - given it's open to the NHS, social services, schools, the police and anyone else who wants to snoop.

Not everyone in those services is a wonderful human being - there are bound to be bad eggs just as in any walk of life.

And what happens if someone accidentally or malicious enters misleading data? Will SS turn up on your doorstep?

NO IT system can ever be completely secure. Ministers must know this - but they are determined to go ahead with this Big Brother idea anyway.

maliciously sorry!

Yes, I think it's a very bad idea and am firmly opposed to it. I'm constantly shocked by how so many people think it is a good thing!

i did a course about this, wondered what had happened to it!

it's a good idea in theory. very complicated system though.

Thing with government databases is they never deliver on the original promises - they are always oversold, tons of examples of this. And they are never entirely secure.

This one was positioned as a response to poor Victoria Climbie's death. Yet recent cases have shown information sharing between police/SS/health/schools is not actually the problem - you don't need a massive database to do this and even when data is shared, people still fuck up.

Another problem is databases give people a false sense of security - so the system may go wrong because people rely on the database.

Social workers already have to spend 80 per cent of their time entering information rather than doing their job properly (not their fault, the way the system makes them work). This can only make things worse.

And this one is clearly already putting children at risk. Brings a whole new category of dangers into the mix.

I agree - it is a terrible idea as is the ID card idea and the DNA database as it is currently being constructed by stealth.

The DNA database especilly annoys me because it contains totally innocent people including my mother in law who just happened to be a community care worker who had a very vague connection to an old person who died. The police will not remove her DNA from the database even though they finished their enquiry several years ago and so now they have a 'hook' to pick up my wife and our children as well. They are adding 'DNA Boost' technology to their forensic science armory so anyone who, say, touched a door handle of a shop that was broken into would be picked up.

I know very well that police forces are trying to get as many people on the database as possible so it will become de facto 100% coverage. Link that to a children's database, ID card database along with face recognition cameras, monitoring of credit cand cash card transations and road toll payments and mobile phone signal and pretty much anyone coudl be tracked 24/7 wthout any judge or court order necessary.

And keeping innocent peoples' records on the DNA database has been ruled illegal, yet they aren't stripping out those records... ministers are now claiming it's necessary to deal with miscarriages of justice, yet in those cases we are talking about people who have been convicted, it's nothing to do with keeping records of those not charged or convicted.

I totally agree that the child database is a very bad idea, it is also seen as id cards by the back door as the records of all of these children won't be deleted when they turn 18. I hate the thought of all of this info about law-abiding innocent citizens on some gigantic database that can be accessed by anyone. It will be very insecure and no doubt there will be many security breaches by civil servants leaving laptops lying around.

I also can't see the point of any of these things. ID cards won't stop terrorism and the childs database won't stop abuse, added to which they will be enormously expensive to create and run. Thank God the government has run out of money and can't afford to go ahead with this.

The other thing that I find really worrying is that the British public seem not to care about personal freedom any more. Why is this? Why is it that so few people worry that we are the most surveilled society in the developed world? The labour govt has got away with criminalising huge sections of society by bringing vast numbers of new laws and yet as long as house prices kept going up, no one seemed to care. Hopefully things will be a bit different now, but judging by the column inches wasted on useless celebrities I doubt it.

Bump You have said it all. useful sites to checkout www.no2id.net re the whole databasething andwww.leavethemkidsalone.com which is more child specific. The huge range of people who will have access to our children's info. is appalling. In some cases things entered on 'contactpoint' are likely to be impressions of things rather than backed by evidence. I don't like the way it's all interlinked far too much like east germany - and did anyone hear that fascist scumbag of a Home Secretary on R4 this morning - utterly deranged and very scary.

This issue (civil liberties) is my sole vote-deciding issue because I think it is more important than anything.

I don't understand why anyone would think this is a good idea. Our children will never know what it is to be anonymous.

This report was recently published in March 2009 by the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust Ltd.
'Database State - Executive summary'

And for anyone who's interested
the full report

The childrens data base and I.d. cards are amongst the worst ideas that the Labour govt. supports.

Considering that tax receipts fell by 10% last year I would love to know where Gordon Brown thinks the money is going to come from. He needs to be cutting public spending and probably raise taxes. He is, however, so self obsessed that he will do neither as he is more interested in himself (i.e re-elected) than what is best for the country.

Oh, yes and Jaqui Smith is too busy defrauding her expense account to actually concentrate on her job properly.

I'd like to hear from someone who does want their kids details on this thing... wonder if there is such a person?

Well it's not going to be the MP's who want the database - their children will all be exempt, as will the children of anyone 'high profile'. And the MP's don't want their childrens info on the database because they know it isn't going to be secure. It is so fucking hypocritical.

I don't understand why there hasn't been more outrage about this subject?! It is so deeply flawed and dangerous in so many ways. Why is this country so apathetic about our right to privacy?

Thanks Edam for starting this thread. Can I revive it? I'm very concerned about ContactPoint, and other databases such as the NHS Detailed Care Record. What mostly concerns me is that professionals can enter details which may be purely their opinion, or which may in fact be simply wrong, without the parents or the child knowing, and without any comeback even if we did find out what had been entered. Then I have other concerns about who is accessing the information, and how secure it will be anyway.

The other worry is just as DaisyMooSteiner has pointed out, why is this all happening with so little fuss? Why are we just letting the government and civil service go ahead with these awful plans? Don't we care about our human rights?

Thanks for your links, juule. I think the executive summary you linked to is good and points out that many of these systems may actually be illegal in any case. And there was a great article by Phillip Pullman in the Times this year: here

I was too late to sign the petition against ContactPoint and I really worry what information may be held about my children on it, without my knowledge.

Hi Mummypig, feel free! Yes, quite. People you don't know from Adam writing what the hell they like, whether it's accurate or not, fact or opinion, without you even knowing is a scary prospect.

You can request to have your child's details removed from it (as MPs' etc will be), and I shall be doing that. Ironically, I am one of the many professionals who will have access to it.

How, exactly, eachpeach?

From what I understand one can request to have your children's information removed from the system (from your LA)- it is one of the many 'issues' with the whole project. There is a legal 'loophole' (for want of a better word) that means they cannot record and store this information without parents'/carers' permission, therefore it is possible for parents to deny/refuse that.

One of the other many issues thrown up was the problem they will have preventing low-paid admin workers in LAs from capitalising on their access to information by selling details of the children of public figures to the press or other groups-hence the possibility for people such as MPs (or indeed members of the celebritariat) of opting out. (I stress that I do not think that of admin workers, the people in charge of developing/designing the system hold them in such low esteem)

Unless you meant 'How, exactly' will I have access....?

I thought you had to have a very good reason to have your child's details kept off the db. Not just that you don't want them on there.

thanks, Eachpeach.

If the people ordering the scheme have so little faith in admin staff, why are they designing a system that means admin staff having access to sensitive, confidential and personal information? Hmm?

Of course if you set up a massive database with details of every single child in the country that can be accessed by hundreds of thousands of people (if not millions) then security breaches are inevitable. Solution to that one is not to set up the damn database, not to exempt VIPs while treating the rest of us as 'other ranks'!

I've done a little bit of digging and ContactPoint certainly doesn't seem to be designed so that people can opt out. Some details can be 'shielded' so they can't be seen. But the idea is that applications for data to be shielded are dealt with on an individual basis. I've cut and pasted from the guidance on shielding:

"The ContactPoint Guidance sets out the limited circumstances where shielding would be applicable. Chiefly, these are when there are strong reasons to believe that by not doing so would be likely to:
place a child at increased risk of significant harm; place an adult at risk of significant harm; prejudice the prevention or detection of a serious crime; or in the case of adoption, put a child?s placement at risk."

However, the leader of Kensington and Chelsea Council is dead against ContactPoint and is advising all borough members to apply for their children's details to be shielded:
Merrick Cockell's comments (leader of RBKC)
Telegraph article

And here is another article about 'shielding' details: www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/14/contactpoint_shielding/.

and a recommendation to the House of Lords (from 2007) saying this whole scheme should be scrapped:
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200607/ldselect/ldmerit/146/14620.htm

Under the Data Protection Act 1998 we are allowed to see information held about ourselves - by making a Subject Access Request "for which you may have to pay a small charge". So I suppose we could apply on our children's behalf to check whatever is recorded about them. But we can only apply to change it if we think it's wrong.

This whole system really makes me wish for the Tories to get back in next time - and I've never wished that before.

oops

House of Lords recommendation

should have checked my links before posting.

The more I hear about this scheme, the more it worries me. And tbh, whether or not we hold admin staff in high regard is irrelevant - the database will be horribly insecure and open to all sorts of abuse. I will definitely be opting out if it is possible (though I'd actually rather leave the country altogether) but I think that the opt-out will either not be allowed for the likes of us or made so expensive that majority of us can't afford it anyway.

Any 'shielding' will be easily hacked too.