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News

Lake death woman and girl drowned. Where's the uproar?

25 replies

yerblurt · 19/03/2009 14:23

Not to detract from the tragedy of the situation.

I wonder if there will be the same uproar that there would have been if the sexes were transposed like there usually is in the news.

This is a tragic and totally uneccesary waste of life. The woman who did this is a selfish b*stard.

link here:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/7952462.stm

A woman and a young girl whose bodies were recovered from a lake in the Cotswolds died from drowning, post mortem examinations have revealed.

The bodies were found on Wednesday by police divers searching for missing celebrity florist Jude Richmond and her nine-year-old daughter Millie.

They were last seen at their home at The Landings, South Cerney, on Sunday.

Police are currently treating the deaths of the woman and child as unexplained.

Open mind

Detective Chief Inspector Andy Wasley, officer-in-charge of the case, said: "At this moment in time we remain open-minded as to the circumstances of these deaths and are exploring a number of lines of enquiry to ascertain exactly what happened.

"A team of officers are analysing the forensic evidence, talking to all those who entered and exited the estate over the weekend and examining CCTV, mobile phone telephony and computer records.

Jude Richmond with daughter Millie
Mrs Richmond ran Camelia Florist in The Laurels

"A detailed forensic search of the house and surrounding area is continuing to take place today and while we understand this may cause some disruption to neighbours we hope they will understand the necessity of such activity."

Formal identification is expected to be completed later.

Mrs Richmond, 41, and Millie were last seen at their home in The Landings, South Cerney, Gloucestershire, on Sunday evening.

Police were first alerted to their disappearance by the family cleaner on Monday morning.

Officers said they were waiting to speak to 41-year-old Mrs Richmond's husband, Nick, who was flying back to the UK from New Zealand.

Detectives now believe that the reported sighting of the pair with a man at the gates of their estate in fact took place between 1700 GMT and 1715 GMT on Saturday, rather than Sunday as originally stated.

Another witness has reported seeing Mrs Richmond walking side by side with a man in his 40s, with short dark hair, in Silver Street between 1500 GMT and 1530 GMT on Sunday, with Millie a few metres behind them.

CCTV has confirmed that the pair left Dobbie's Garden Centre in Siddington, near Cirencester, at about 1635 GMT on Sunday.

Handle questions

Teachers at Cirencester Junior School, where Millie was a pupil, have taken advice on how to handle questions from classmates.

"We've been advising staff on how they can answer questions, what sort of questions might come up," said head teacher Pam Keevil.

"We're hoping to put out something to parents later in the week, when things are a little bit more clear."

Mrs Richmond, who runs Camelia Florist in The Laurels, South Cerney, and grew up in Ross-shire in the Highlands, has provided flowers for the Queen Mother, the film Bridget Jones's Diary and the band Pink Floyd.

The Camelia Florist website described Millie as the "business's mascot".

An entry about her said: "She is really mad about three things in life - dogs, ponies and flowers."

OP posts:
JustCallMeGoat · 19/03/2009 14:26

well done on mastering cut and paste

Peachy · 19/03/2009 14:26

Bad luck you missed yesterdays thread on this- uproar and fall outs a plenty. Shall fetch you a link

thumbwitch · 19/03/2009 14:26

I was afraid something like this had happened.
I know what you mean - if it had been her and her Dad there would have been an outcry about selfish bastards etc. but less likely when it's the mum.

But we don't know yet whether it was a suicide-murder or whether it was murder-murder, do we?

Peachy · 19/03/2009 14:27

here

edam · 19/03/2009 14:29

no-one knows yet what the circumstances were. IF the mother did kill her daughter, then you have to look at all the research that shows a striking difference between mothers who kill and fathers. Mothers (generally) do it out of despair, believing they can't leave their children behind. Men (generally) do it out of anger, rage and a desire to punish their ex-wives/partners.

thumbwitch · 19/03/2009 14:32

oh edam, that's exactly it - that's what I was thinking but couldn't express it and didn't know yet whether it was relevant.

missyhissey · 19/03/2009 14:35

A child has still died though, whether it's been done out of a mother's despair or a father's anger, the end result is still the same - an innocent child has been murdered. I think theres a tendancy for that to be overlooked in all the discussion about motive etc.

thumbwitch · 19/03/2009 14:38

MH - just as a matter of curiosity, nothing else - do you think it is kinder on the child to take them with you or to leave them without their mum? Obviously the best option is that no one dies - but if the mum is going to kill herself, which is, in your opinion, the kinder for the DD?

Gorionine · 19/03/2009 14:39

Another thread

Nabster · 19/03/2009 14:39
pagwatch · 19/03/2009 14:46

I understand the thought process of a desperately anxious/depressed mum who has such anxiety about their childs quality of life without them that double suicide seems like an option.
I only understand it having been trying to come to terms with DS2's difficulties at the same time as battling a severe depression. A very severe depression screws with all rational thought and the hideous and dreadful seems reasonable ( or can do - not always of course)

But the question of whether rationally it is best is exactly the same for a child with no disabilities as for a child with disabilities.Which makes the answer pretty straightforward doesn't it?

yerblurt · 19/03/2009 14:59

By edam on Thu 19-Mar-09 14:29:22
no-one knows yet what the circumstances were. IF the mother did kill her daughter, then you have to look at all the research that shows a striking difference between mothers who kill and fathers. Mothers (generally) do it out of despair, believing they can't leave their children behind. Men (generally) do it out of anger, rage and a desire to punish their ex-wives/partners.

... any links to this 'research' or is it 'gut feeling'

I think that's more of a stereotype that you are projecting tbh.

I would think that any parent who kills their children is acting pretty desperately and is in a dark place, rather than punishing the other parent. There are clear examples of both sorts of behaviour and thought processes by both sexes. remember the woman who chucked herself off the humber bridge with the 2 year old child in spite (news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/6177642.stm)

OP posts:
SobranieCocktail · 19/03/2009 15:08

yerblurt - regardless of the gender stereotyping, isn't it considerably more likely that this parent was under more duress due to her DD having a considerable disability. The other stories that I know of involve men whose "only" stress is that they have separated from their wife.

beanieb · 19/03/2009 15:13

Has foul play been ruled out then?

beanieb · 19/03/2009 15:15

Also - (and I am not defending her because she is female) - had she taken the child from the primary carer and killed her as a way to punish the primary carer then i think it would have been slightly different!

thumbwitch · 19/03/2009 15:16

no it's still just speculation beanieb.

2shoes · 19/03/2009 15:18

By SobranieCocktail on Thu 19-Mar-09 15:08:12
yerblurt - regardless of the gender stereotyping, isn't it considerably more likely that this parent was under more duress due to her DD having a considerable disability. The other stories that I know of involve men whose "only" stress is that they have separated from their wife.

womdered how long untill someone balemed that.
ffs

Buda · 19/03/2009 15:18

I wondered if it could have been an accident. Maybe the girl fell in and the mother tried to save her? The lake was behind their house wasn't it?

2shoes · 19/03/2009 15:20

why did the op start another thread, there are 2 already

BitOfFun · 19/03/2009 15:21

I did link to research on the other thread, but frankly I wish I hadn't bothered....

BitOfFun · 19/03/2009 15:32

Sorry, posted too soon as a customer came in...I meant to say that none of the research evidence tends to convince anyone who is determined to portray this as an act of evil rather than despair, and after getting upset by what I felt was a bit of an insensitive bunfight, I bowed out of the other thread as it was bringing stuff up for me and I was getting over-involved. Then I got told I was "strange".

So I'll steer clear of this one too now, just in case!

SobranieCocktail · 19/03/2009 15:38

2shoes - what do you mean?

noddyholder · 19/03/2009 15:43

This is so sad.Imagine being in a place emotionally where you felt that was your only/best option.

thumbwitch · 19/03/2009 15:44

I suppose for some people the sanctity of life supersedes all other considerations, whereas others can see that there are worse things than dying; or maybe it's an empathy thing?

When this first came up and they said the mum had been feeling down, I feared that they would be found together drowned or something - and I pitied the mum in terms of feeling so desperate that she had to take her own life and her daughter's too, so her daughter wouldn't have to live with the grief of losing her mum. That was my instant reaction.

I hope to God I never get that down/depressed/desperate that I could even begin to consider doing that - but I occasionally worry about my age and health and accidents and how awful it would be for DS to grow up without me. I wouldn't do it, I couldn't do it to my DH, let along my darling boy - but I am sane and rational at the moment.

jesuswhatnext · 19/03/2009 16:18

the uproar should occour if it does indeed turn out that that the mother was in dispair due to lack of help/funding/respite care etc

that scenario has been played out several times in recent years

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