a new super race?

[rosieglo]

Re the article in the guardian about the baby that was successfully screened for the breast cancer gene and the controversy about 'designer babies' - what's the fuss? I'm thinking that breeding out illness and disabilty is a great thing. Improving intelligence also; hopefully the smarter the future generations are the more likely they will find ways to halt our destruction of the planet and stop fighting. What's wrong with wanting fitter, stronger, cleverer and healthier children? And I think it is so wrong for a deaf or blind parent to actively seek out a way to pass their disability on, I cannot begin to understand how they could want to deprive their child of the ability to hear music or see the world around them.
hmmn - for me it's a pretty straight forward matter.

OK, looking at what you have actually written (rather than my "preconceived" ideas about it)...

You start off by saying "Re the article in the guardian about the baby that was successfully screened for the breast cancer gene and the controversy about 'designer babies' - what's the fuss?"

i.e. you specifically reference a case where IVF was done and then the embryos screened to make sure that those with the wrong combination of genes are never born. So I think people have, not unreasonably, assumed that that's what you're talking about.

Let's start from first principles.

IS that what you're talking about?

Are you talking about screening embryos for [whatever] and discarding those that have [whatever]?

(if not, then one aspect of "what's the fuss" is that if technology and expectations focus on screening embryos (either in vitro or in utero) then alternative research into cures (whether gene therapy or something else) doesn't take place)

I think the egg and spoon is the superest race.

I think you'll find that a lot of people on here have disabled children (I am the proud 'owner' of two!) and that really, teachinga child isn't in any way the same. I have also nursed asd kids before I had two: trust me on that one!>

If there was a cure I think people might see things differently- but there won't need to be a cure if the babies don't exist.

I know of four people on this thread who are disabled themselves- listen to their voices carefuly Rosie, they are the people you seem to think you speak for. Yet you seem to have a different outlook.

Eve I wanted to think carefully about yur post before I posted. I'm lucky enough not to have HD or have lost anyone to MS: I know how it affects physically through nursing (and Parkinsons too, was employed as a priovate carer to a gentleman twith that) but of course have no take on how it would feel myself, my best mate has the breast cancer gene but even then I can only watch although I am terrified for her.

The examples of the illnesses you gave made me think that they'd possibly be helped more by better quality end of life care (and yes, maybe elective euthanasia is and onloy if very ell amnaged s there's no risk of anything but self choice and no horrid trip to a grim building in Switzerland). I dow onder if the day to day effect of living with a disease such as HD would be at least mitigated by the knowledge that you need not suffer. It would also give those who don't want that the chnace- as Riven says, she has MS and is opposed to these tests.

I'm the only person I know who may have actually chosen a child with sn in that many know beofre birth but I conceived ds4 knowing he has a ridiculously high (80%?) chance of ASD. As it is I think he is so far clear (but regression is possible, ds3 regressed) however I would not have amde that choice had I not believed in the quality of life he can have regardless. But the difference is wide between conditions such as asd, ds,etc and HD, Parkinsons- I can understand why an individual would amke those choices.

"From my past experience I know that a lot of people are more than happy to air their views about what is right for children with disabilies having never had any experience of them. And a lot of people seem to like getting agressive about it too."
rosieglo as it happens I do know what I am talking about, more than someone in your position who once worked with disabeld people.
your op does not mention an email;
re read your op and you will see it is offensive in the extreme, there is 100% more chance of a NT person causing problems for the planet, than my dd who has severe cp.
"I'm thinking that breeding out illness and disabilty is a great thing" you say that but you make no mention of whta you would do with babied that are disabled at birth due to cock ups at the hospital, or people who are disabled later in life...

rosie, you are still so so naive, regardless of how enlightened you claim to be with regards to you experiences. I too worked with ASD children when I was training as a nursery nurse. I also have two children with immune deficiancies. DS2 was concieved with a very high chance of being born with a medical problem, which he does in fact have. But at no point would I choose another child over any I have.....and you know what, even knowing what I now know and live with, if I was given the choice of gene reduction I still would not take it. what if, thru taking that gene away, I actually inherantly change my child into someone else completely, and one who now has another gene which, without the first gene, now becomes stronger and is more 'dangerous' thereby giving a worse illness/disability??

It actually scares the crap out of me to think that we can now 'play god' to such a degree that people like you now think it is a PREFERABLE thing, and one that we should all aspire too. Adolf Hitler thought that he had a grand idea and changed peoples views so much that look what happened...........they drive to eradicate an entire race!

now, I know that you would be horrified to think that you are being compared to him, but sorry............it is thoughts like yours that actually lead to thoughts like his.....scary isn;t it?!

now, this comment in particular I am going to pick on.....!
""Re the deaf and blind part of my message, can any of you honestly say you would choose that for your child? No matter how clever, erudite, amusing or happy a deaf or blind person I meet may be, I am going to put that down to who they are, not whether they are deaf or blind.""

I have no idea on statistics so may in fact be about to speak out of my arse, but I am sure that many of the deaf and blind among us were not actually concieved deaf or blind.........that in fact the deafness and blindness actually could be from an infection during pregnancy or from birth trauma......even from being born slightly prem and needing oxygen at birth. that is one well known cause of blindness......to strong a concentration of O2 when being ventilated. What then?? do you just kill off those babies as they are not 'good enough' anymore???

Some deaf parents express a desire and a preference for having deaf children, I believe. I remember it being very controversial although am not certain of the exact details.

Of course a world entirely without illness and disability might be nice, it's how you go about it. Killing off those who don't fit the ideal isn't something I find morally acceptable at any stage of life, including in utero.

What would happen if screening for everything became standard practise, and there were mothers like me who would not agree to abortion - what would happen to them? The mind boggles. Forced terminations or other measures to make it 'fair' and not disadvantage the poor child who would be born disabled...it doesn't bear thinking about.

Also, have you forgotten that everyone has something wrong with them? Some of us are predisposed to cancer, or heart problems, or sight issues...others have physical deformities or bits missing. Some of us are just really ugly or stupid!

If you start screening for some stuff you're going to end up at the fat end of the wedge sometime - you can never create a perfect world, you'd just be screening out everyone basically!

Yes please Riven I would like a nice armchair. I could have done with it in sainsburys this morning

How short sighted to think that there can be such a thing as a perfect human. If you mess with nature then there will be a fallout. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction......

Very dangerous and very, very wrong.

I so love this idea that disability will be obliterated through screening! many disabilities are acquired onbes, not congenital: cancer thorugh environmental factors, accidents, birth injury....

It is arrogant beyond belief to assume that our cultural notion of ideal is perfection. Perfection comes in many shapes and sizes

The deaf thing- rare anyway but I could understand why someone would wish for a child who occupies rhe same worls and uses the same communication methods etc as myself. To me that makes sense.

I so love this idea that disability will be obliterated through screening! many disabilities are acquired onbes, not congenital: cancer thorugh environmental factors, accidents, birth injury....

It is arrogant beyond belief to assume that our cultural notion of ideal is perfection. Perfection comes in many shapes and sizes

The deaf thing- rare anyway but I could understand why someone would wish for a child who occupies rhe same worls and uses the same communication methods etc as myself. To me that makes sense.

riven tbh i think they are just jealous, look at our beautiful dd's, the people who start threads like this will never know such beauty.

2shoes did your thread get pulled?

yes, have asked why, seems on mn you can talk about ridding the world of disabeld people, but not about ridding mn of these threads

Can't believe they could do that and leave this one...I mean it was hardly aggressive or personal.

let us know wontcha

For the first time ever I feel the need (on MN)to swear offensively.

So it is OK to hold, and spout, such offensive views as seen on this thread but not OK to be against them?

One up for free speech I say.

To answer this question fron one of OP's posts

No I would not because it would be the start of a world where compassion and tolerence will desappear totally. I think everyone on this planet has a role to play, desabled or not.

Maybe yours is to shock people and wake them up about the horrible future we prepare for ourselves if we really start to pick and choose who should survive and who shouldn't?

My dd is one of those disabled people who actually suffer. It's not just about unsypmathetic people: it is about actual physical pain. This does not mean that she would be better off not living. Pain is one aspect of her life. Her intelligence, creativity, empathy and sheer sense of fun are other aspects. The world would be poorer without her. She does not wish she had never been born.

Now how much would pre-natal screening help her?:

There is no cure for her condition.

If there had been a cure, then presumably that cure could be applied once she was born.

Since there is no cure, the only solution offered by early screening would be for this vibrant, intelligent, beautiful creature to have been aborted and never to have lived at all.

Doesn't sound much of a solution to me.

Of course I would like to have a child that was not disabled. But not if it meant having a child that was her.

So how would you use genetic screening in a way that does not involve aborting existing embryos?

new to mumsnet i see rosieglo