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a new super race?

1005 replies

rosieglo · 18/01/2009 02:56

Re the article in the guardian about the baby that was successfully screened for the breast cancer gene and the controversy about 'designer babies' - what's the fuss? I'm thinking that breeding out illness and disabilty is a great thing. Improving intelligence also; hopefully the smarter the future generations are the more likely they will find ways to halt our destruction of the planet and stop fighting. What's wrong with wanting fitter, stronger, cleverer and healthier children? And I think it is so wrong for a deaf or blind parent to actively seek out a way to pass their disability on, I cannot begin to understand how they could want to deprive their child of the ability to hear music or see the world around them.
hmmn - for me it's a pretty straight forward matter.

OP posts:
psychomum5 · 19/01/2009 20:02

MillyR....I mentioned further down that her OP is touching on the same 'values' that Hitler held dear......and she didn;t seem to like being compared to hitler!!!

afraid to say, that is exactly what he was trying to create, if the history books are correct.

mm22bys · 19/01/2009 20:05

Lisalisa,

I just thank my lucky stars that so far I have not been in a place to have to make that decision.

It is really not our place to judge....walk a mile in their shoes and then maybe you would be in a position to pass judgement....

edam · 19/01/2009 20:48

MrJustAbout, I didn't take any offence at all! As it happens, I was the one who got my facts wrong.

jute · 19/01/2009 21:01

MillyR- I agree, & that's what my very first post way back at the beginning of this thread was referring to

MannyMoeAndJack · 19/01/2009 21:19

'As for disabilities such as severe autism, unless you live with it daily how can you possibly know what it?s like, for the person or the parent'

Well, I live with this daily and I can say that it is extremely tough indeed. I can't speak for how it is for my ds and neither can he because he is non-verbal.

Far, far more support ought to be available to support the lives of disabled individuals and their carers - at least to equal the resources that are being thrown at the development of all the pre-natal tests. My ds is doubly incontinent - I have no idea where we will change him when he becomes too big for the car boot (it's a tight squeeze now) because the facilities for older children/adults who have continence issues are very rare indeed. Why is this?

eidsvold · 19/01/2009 21:31

MrsBrendaDyson and others - I have a child with a condition that can be detected antenatally and the pregnancy terminated - and in fact most pregnancies where the baby has down syndrome are in fact terminated.

Dh and I chose to have dd1 so again - I think I am in a position to comment on statements being made here.

"Whilst we can love our relatives with disabilities, and i am sure most of us have at least one, if we could would we like to keep the person and not the disability?"

No I would not want to remove dd1's down syndrome. It is a part of who she is and makes her the unique little girl that she is.

I would much rather remove the ignorance and bigotry expressed quite openly towards people with a disability. I would rather remove the people who can only see dd1 as a 'downs' instead of dd1. I would rather remove the so called intelligentsia who think that having a disability automatically means lower quality of life.

The op was offensive - you did not say - you thought being able to screen and detect for breast cancer was a good idea - you said -
I'm thinking that breeding out illness and disability is a great thing.

You also said that improving intelligence is a great thing - you know intelligence does not mean you care any more for the planet than someone with less intelligence. Nor does it guarantee you are a 'worthwhile' person.

Simplistica · 19/01/2009 21:35

one day- we will all die

MannyMoeAndJack · 19/01/2009 21:45

'one day- we will all die'

some sooner than others when pre-natal testing really gets going.

SueW · 19/01/2009 22:09

When I was pg I had a scan at about 18 weeks, with blood tests. As I walked away from the hospital, I decided I wanted the pics. I went back but the midwife said they needed them for their records.

I got halfway across Battersea Br and burst into tears. I could remember having my child legs, feet, spine, head pointed out, but not its arms and managed to convince myself it had no arms.

I oculdn't bring myself to go back or to ring. I didn't know that had that been the case I would have been 'dealt with'. I had no-one accompany me to the scan.

I remember ringing round friends (I'd just done a non-stop journey from eastern Netherlands by car via overnight ferry arriving in London on the day of atube strike so horrific traffic) and then getting in the car and driving to my mum's. In the meantime, I'd decided that even if my baby had no arms, I wouldn't throw it away. Cos if it was born with arms and ran in front of a car, desperate to get to Battesea Petting Zoo, I wouldn't throw it away then.

But I'd still rather DD faced life without her condition. It doesn't help make her stronger; she just shouldn't have to deal with that crap, tbh

CoteDAzur · 19/01/2009 22:14

"you thought being able to screen and detect for breast cancer was a good idea"

Isn't it?

There are families where all female members have died an early and horrible death, only after much suffering. Is it wrong to wish to free one's descendants from this curse?

lisalisa · 19/01/2009 22:23

mm22bys - not sure why your message was directed towards me? I was being non judgmental rather than judgmental. Or maybe you were agreeing with me? Sometimes a lot gets lost in posting !

rosieglo · 20/01/2009 04:24

I have re read my OP to try and understand exactly how it has been taken so offensively and been so wrongly interpreted. I can see that the langauge is sensational, which was partly intentional in order to get a discussion started, perhaps too sensational for most peoples' taste though. The term 'breeding out' I think has upet people most, with its third reich echoes so yes that was a poor choice of words. But I still think it IS NOT a bigoted statement, nor narrow minded

Where exactly does it say that I want to cull people with disabilities, or abort babies?

I would do anything to prevent a future child of mine having a terminal illness or a disability if I could, the DOES NOT mean I think any less of people who have either. That is pretty much exactly what I said in the beginning.

Some people, who interpreted me wrongly, have argued that being disabled has in no way been a bad thing for them. They have then gone on to list a catalogue of horrors that they have suffered as a result of being disabled. When I read that it just strengthened my belief that I would want to avoid that for a future child of mine.

I DO NOT think that disabled people should be eradicated, nor that they do not contribute to society.

I DO NOT think people should stop having sex...

This is NOT ABOUT people who have become disabled through an accident.

This IS ABOUT genetic and inherited diseases and disabilities.

I DO think that if we can intervene in any way to make a life an easier and better one then we should.

We do all want the best for our children and for them to be the best they can be (not in a pushy mother sense before anybody leaps on that bandwagon). We start by loving them and feeding them right and educating them. Genetic intervention is, to my mind, an extreme aspect of this, with medicine (e.g. vaccinations) inbetween. Medicine may become so advanced that ensuring our future children are healthier, smarter and fitter than us is an easy thing to do, commonplace in fact.

In the future, with advances in genetic medicine, it may be possible to treat an embryo and cure a disease or disability there and then, so no embryos need be discarded on the basis of not being 'desirable.'

So many people have objected to the idea of embryos being discarded, but that is what happens all the time with IVF - not all are implanted - some have to be rejected.

By the way is nearly everyone on this thread pro life? I am pro choice, and if you are too then how can you think that rejecting an embryo on the basis of it carrying a breast cancer gene is terrible when you believe it is ok for a fetus to be aborted on the basis on being merely unwanted?

I realise that a lot of the people responding on this thread are disabled, the fact that I am not seems to mean I am not allowed to have a view on whether or not I would wish a future child of mine to be disabled. My experience with disabled children again appears to put me at a disadvantage for some people. Does this attitude mean that people who are disabled should not be allowed to have any input into things regarding able people?

Medicine and science are advancing rapidly, and one day genetic inteference will probably be commonplace. I am NOT talking about people making the decision over whether to have a blond blue eyed boy or a curly red haired little girl, I am talking about people being able to make sure their child does not carry a gene which will make them die in agony from a horrible disease, or that will prevent them from having a disability (I AM NOT going into which disabilities - that again is another subject).

I have read through this entire thread and I don't know that I can make myself much clearer. Had I been more explicit in my OP and used less controversial terminology then perhaps this tirade of anger could have been averted. I wrote, without thinking that none of you know me, and so do not understand how I speak, my use of words. I should have been more careful, but...I still stand by what I say in my OP, particularly in regards to disease.

OP posts:
petrovia · 20/01/2009 07:01

Oh bugger, see now you've explained without the inflammatory language, nobody wants to argue!!!

MaryBS · 20/01/2009 07:25

I don't know, she still sounds pretty clueless and ignorant to me, even though she HAS toned down her language.

mysterymoniker · 20/01/2009 07:31

Fitter, happier, more productive,
comfortable,
not drinking too much,
regular exercise at the gym
(3 days a week),
getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries,
at ease,
eating well
(no more microwave dinners and saturated fats),
a patient better driver,
a safer car
(baby smiling in back seat),
sleeping well
(no bad dreams),
no paranoia,
careful to all animals
(never washing spiders down the plughole),
keep in contact with old friends
(enjoy a drink now and then),
will frequently check credit at (moral) bank (hole in the wall),
favors for favors,
fond but not in love,
charity standing orders,
on Sundays ring road supermarket
(no killing moths or putting boiling water on the ants),
car wash
(also on Sundays),
no longer afraid of the dark or midday shadows
nothing so ridiculously teenage and desperate,
nothing so childish - at a better pace,
slower and more calculated,
no chance of escape,
now self-employed,
concerned (but powerless),
an empowered and informed member of society
(pragmatism not idealism),
will not cry in public,
less chance of illness,
tyres that grip in the wet
(shot of baby strapped in back seat),
a good memory,
still cries at a good film,
still kisses with saliva,
no longer empty and frantic like a cat tied to a stick,
that's driven into frozen winter shit
(the ability to laugh at weakness),
calm,
fitter,
healthier and more productive
a pig in a cage on antibiotics.

Judy1234 · 20/01/2009 08:00

I am sure Jux's friend would like their 3 childern without the pain and then death by age 25. It's a bit of a non issue. And in some areas we can do ensure children without certain conditinos which will hurt them are not born. It isn othing to do with breeding a super race. It's just about using science to the advantage of man kind. Most conditions like blindness, deafness, down's etc do not bring with them a whole load of additional wonderful genes that you lose if you ensure no one is born blind. In a very very tiny proportino of aspergers's cases - oprobably lses than 1% of those there are some with a type of genius but may be we can work out which bit of the gene gives you that and ensure that survives whilst the difficult bits go.

MannyMoeAndJack · 20/01/2009 08:08

'In a very very tiny proportino of aspergers's cases - oprobably lses than 1% of those there are some with a type of genius but may be we can work out which bit of the gene gives you that and ensure that survives whilst the difficult bits go.'

creaming off genius to make a more intelligent, less imperfect race then. This thread is going round in circles.

sarah293 · 20/01/2009 08:16

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sarah293 · 20/01/2009 08:18

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mysterymoniker · 20/01/2009 08:24

most of us probably agree that cancer is a Bad Thing though?

if there was rampant breast cancer in my family I'd be tempted to take whatever precautionary measures were available when it came to conceiving a child without the offending gene

as for the rest of it, it's impossible to discuss without hurting someone's feelings - I'm glad I had my babies 'blind' and was happy to get on with whatever I was given

it's pointless bringing conditions like Aspergers/schizophrenia/depression into this because they're not wholly hereditary anyway, there are other external factors at play

sarah293 · 20/01/2009 08:29

This reply has been deleted

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CoteDAzur · 20/01/2009 08:46

MS is a horrible disease and I feel for you

If you know you have the cancer gene, you can do something about it, though - have a preventive double mastectomy, and you will have the same life expectancy as everyone else. Whether that is worth it, given you have MS, is another matter.

OverSimplistica · 20/01/2009 09:34

'I realise that a lot of the people responding on this thread are disabled, the fact that I am not seems to mean I am not allowed to have a view on whether or not I would wish a future child of mine to be disabled. My experience with disabled children again appears to put me at a disadvantage for some people. Does this attitude mean that people who are disabled should not be allowed to have any input into things regarding able people?'

the thing about working in an sn unit- I can say from experience of both sides- is that you get the challlenges, the problems- and not the true joy. You don't have that love, the real bond to mitigate that iyswim. Teaching / paid caring for a child with sn is about problem solving in many ways; being a Mummy is being a mummy, regardless.

The next evolutionary step thing is often thrown about with AS- when you think we are becoming a race of PC dwelling chatboard communicating individuals, it kinda makes sense, no?

Riven (Tis I, LePeach -) my friend has lost all aunts and her Mum before 50 to breast cancer, she still had to request the tests (she does have the gene, is looking at a double mastectomy)

Am pro choice but pro very informed choice: my experience is that information reduces the fear factor of Sn dramatically. Yet there are leaflets out thre- I was given one, when ds3 had a 1 / (175 iirc ) chance of DS called 'YOUR child has Downs Syndrome' which scared the life out of me even as a non- amnio taking confident in my experience f DS type. Hardly reassuring.

CoteDAzur · 20/01/2009 10:01

Don't expect an answer anytime soon.

They are too busy slagging off us "racist" "idiots" on their thread about a thread.

jute · 20/01/2009 10:05

Manny you said:

"Far, far more support ought to be available to support the lives of disabled individuals and their carers - at least to equal the resources that are being thrown at the development of all the pre-natal tests."

Quite agree, actually listened to a very interesting talk yesterday which said exactly this. Is it ethically sound to be spending millions searching out genetic causes etc and researching this that and the other when support services are so underfunded.

I keep posting this, but this is a video of my son who is severely autistic. He's non-verbal but in the last year or so has been able to access a very full life. This has been achieved through a) specialist education (lots of work on life skills), b) finally learning to imitate- achieved through 1:1 instruction c) and understanding of the word 'stop' - which needed 3 people to teach- parents need support of this form and d) the provision of specialist events such as surfing.

An uderstanding that inclusion policies often lead to exclusion for children like my son would also help him have a full and active life.

Someone said earlier wouldn't you want the child without the disability. I'm not sure how that would be achieved tbh. He can have a happy life, just needs some extra support. Would like that to be easier to access, but I see no need for him to be terminated before birth. Can't imagine and alternative other would be any 'better'. And my life would be a lot unhappier without him (because of him I'm doing a job I love that I wouldn't have done, have met some wonderful friends I would never have met etc etc, do I want a different life? no thanks).

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