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News

'Unprecedented' rise in measles

371 replies

27 · 09/01/2009 10:59

link

The BBC this morning have a story about an unprecedented rise in measles cases over the last year.
I'll C+P to save you clicking the link

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There is an "unprecedented increase" in measles cases in England and Wales, experts report.

Data from the Health Protection Agency showed there were 1,217 cases of measles from January to November 2008.

And 75% of the 115 cases diagnosed in November were outside the traditional hotspot of London - in the north west, west midlands and south east.

The HPA's Dr Mary Ramsay said the rise in cases was due to "relatively low" MMR uptake over the past decade.

OP posts:
stuffitllama · 12/01/2009 13:02

I will come back later

thumbwitch · 12/01/2009 13:25

for me, the most telling thing was somethign I heard at a conference. Dr Rosemary Waring was speaking there and she told us an anecdote of when she met the French head of the company that produces the MMR. She asked him whether he would give it to his own sons and he apparently said "God, no".

I have absolutely no way of verifying the truth of this statement other than the fact that Rosemary Waring is a highly respected researcher at Birmingham University, who I can't imagine making it up.

Beachcomber · 12/01/2009 13:39

First off, autism is not a psychiatric illness so I'm not sure why psychiatrists like Fombonne and Rutter are getting involved. Also epidemiology cannot address the question of an affected subgroup of children as it does not have the capacity to so I'm not sure why it is being used as a tool to answer questions about vaccines affecting a susceptible subset of children. (Particularly whilst the obvious route of clinically examining the affected children is being neglected).

Also I find it dubious that these big shot experts in both psychiatry and epidemiology (neither of which relate to the autism question) work as expert witnesses for vaccine manufacturers and work in an institution that is mainly funded by corporate money and yet are used to conduct supposidely impartial studies the findings of which have potentially devastating consequences for those manufacturers and corporations.

In addition, this lot (and Goldacre who got us onto this subject) are all involved in the Institute of Psychiatrists and have links to Simon Wessely.

I forget that no doubt lots of people are not aware of the Institute of Psychiatrists' reputation.

The IoP of which Simon Wessely is a prominent member is known for misrepresenting organic illnesses (often of an environmental nature through say chemical poisoning) as psychiatric illnesses. In other words, this mainly corporate funded institution works at having physically sick people dubbed as mentally ill. People who probably got sick through exposure to chemicals sold by the corporations who fund the IoP. Is that sort of clear?

There is a group of psychiatrists commonly known as the 'Wessely Scool' who have done untold damage to ME/CFS patients by having their illness labeled in the UK as a mental disorder when the prevailing research into these conditions shows them to be organic in nature and related to exposure to chemicals and or viruses.

Because of the intentional mislabeling of these diseases sufferers are considered mentally ill, denied treatment that actually helps and given treatments that can worsen their conditions.

This is a long but very interesting brief for the House of Commons Select Health Committee which describes the Wessely School's activities.

Wessely is also a big player in Gulf War Syndrome denial and in presenting other environmental illnesses as psychiatric.

It is therefore of little surprise when reading about people who perpetuate misinformation about autism that one comes across links to the IoP, Wessely, Maudsley and so on.

It would appear that Goldacre moves in immensely powerful circles whilst presenting himself as an independent journalist.

Beachcomber · 12/01/2009 13:48

Question for you 27 if you don't mind.

You say;

"If I was designing an epidemiological study looking for autism in children I would have thought he (Rutter) would be the obvious person to be involved."

How on earth do you come to this conclusion?

You think that a guy whose main links to the subject are;

that he has done expert work to defend the manufacturers of the product being investigated in litigation

that he used to chair a subsidiary of the manufacturers of the product being investigated

and that he works for an institution that is partly funded by the manufacturers of the product being investigated is the perfect candidate to conduct a study into whether the said product causes brain damage in children?

Really?

Heathcliffscathy · 12/01/2009 13:50

people don't know what autism is yet do they? (not being in any way inflammatory beachcomber and sorry if am being thick) at least my understanding is that there are many theories but no definitive one...i could be totally wrong.

agree that someone as heavily involved with protecting big pharma would in no way be ideal.

Heathcliffscathy · 12/01/2009 13:50

thumbwitch

Heathcliffscathy · 12/01/2009 13:51

i didn't mean them! i meant

SORRY

thumbwitch · 12/01/2009 13:54

lol sophable - I did wonder!

27 · 12/01/2009 13:58

I dont have any reason to try to defend Michael Rutter, but he is a very notable figure in child psychiatry, not least for his epidemiological work on child psychiatric illness. He is the author of the Isle of Wight study, which must be the most well-known peice of research of its kind.

Thats why I would think he would be the sort of person to be involved.

OP posts:
thumbwitch · 12/01/2009 14:03

but 27, as beachcomber said, autism is not generally a psychiatric illness!

pagwatch · 12/01/2009 14:05

but it is not an epedemic of a psyciatric illness

  • would be my point.
27 · 12/01/2009 14:07

Autism is not a mental illness.
It is a mental disorder, a pervasive developmental disorder, hence its interest to child psychiatry and psychology.

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stuffitllama · 12/01/2009 14:08

I understood John Rutter to have devoted much of his professional life to examining and "treating" autism as a psychiatric illness. As soon as I read this I wasn't surprised to see him denying any MMR link -- after all everything he has worked towards would be lost, in tatters, an utter waste of time if it is proven.

I wasn't aware of his IoP links. I thought in his case it wasn't the money, it was his professional pride.

Honda, the guy he worked with -- he was head of the pharmacology department in Tokyo.

Beachcomber · 12/01/2009 14:28

Actually on the subject of epidemiology whilst I agree that it is a tool that is too crude to detect a subgroup of affected people, it should be able to detect that group if it is relatively large.

There are many researchers who believe that the group of children with vaccine induced autism is much larger than was first thought and the the Honda/Rutter paper did detect them and indeed that this paper is evidence in the case against MMR/vaccines.

Clifford Miller who does pro bono vaccine damage work has a good analysis here.

Plus some comments on who Rutter is.

Sophable it would appear that those who deny that autism is linked to vaccines don't actually know what autism is. Just how that fits in with them being able to say what it isn't, I don't quite know.

There is plenty of research that is starting to paint a biological picture of what autism is. Lots of it points to a vaccine/immune system connection though. I don't know a lot about this, people like pagwatch and jimjams are much better informed on this than me.

Temerity · 12/01/2009 14:30

Thumbwitch, isn't that also the case for our beloved former PM? Did he give his youngest child the MMR? Didn't he give him separate vaxes?

Beachcomber · 12/01/2009 14:33

27 I don't see how you are linking autism and psychiatric illness and actually find the implication quite offensive, although perhaps it is just misinformed.

People with brain damage are not suffering from delusions. They are brain damaged.

I hope this is not too upsetting for parents like pagwatch .

27 · 12/01/2009 14:36

Beachcomber

That is not what I said.

I said Autism is not a mental illness.

I dont know why that would make you think I thought it was?

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27 · 12/01/2009 14:39

You also seem to be implying that there is something shameful about having a mental illness.

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stuffitllama · 12/01/2009 14:46

I don't think Beach meant that, 27. It's more that there seems to be an effort (seems!) to deny that autism has a real, physiological cause. If it can be made to seem like a mental "illness" the implication is that it is "all in the mind" rather like the downplaying of ME and Gulf War syndrome. It's a very fine line and I can't imagine Beach would want to be offensive, nor I think has she been.

27 · 12/01/2009 14:51

I dont know what the current theories are about the causes of autism, but I would expect there to be a biological basis to it.

Mental illnesses also have biological basis though, and I think it is offensive to suggest that they are in some way less "real" than other conditions.

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thumbwitch · 12/01/2009 14:52

also there isn't a whole lot of difference between 'illness' and 'disorder' - more semantics than anything.

thumbwitch · 12/01/2009 14:56

Ah, ME - one of my very good friends was an early sufferer of that, for over a year, while she was doing her physiology degree at one of the better universities. She was made to feel a total fraud, as though she could pull herself together and just get over it.

LAter on, her prior illness (labyrinthitis) was linked quite commonly with the onset of ME-type symptoms. She was lucky - it only lasted for the year. But that didn't eradcate the fact that so many doctors thought she was making it up, it was psychological, it was all in her mind etc. etc.

Not quite sure what my point is here - just wanted to point out that some illnesses can be totally misunderstood until a biochemical/physiological basis can be found for them.

stuffitllama · 12/01/2009 15:04

27 So do I, so do I.

Slug did your dh come back to you?

Beachcomber · 12/01/2009 15:17

Thank you suffitllama. That was exactly what I meant.

Quite obviously there is no shame to be had in suffering from mental illness. Apologies if anyone really thought that was what I was implying and has taken offense.

Beachcomber · 12/01/2009 15:21

Oh forgot to say I'm still interested in why you think Rutter an obvious choice for being involved in a study into autism 27.

Gotta go out now but will look in later. I'm intruiged by the thinking behind this.