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According to Pope Benedict, saving humanity from homosexuality is as important as saving the rainforests.

95 replies

LittleJingleBellas · 23/12/2008 07:28

So just remember that when you're doing your recycling.

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LadyLauraStandish · 23/12/2008 13:47

So it's okay to be homosexual but you mustn't have sex. Is that about right, Upwind?

UnquietDad · 23/12/2008 13:52

"i never ever put stock in the pope, stupid old bigoted bastard"

Would you put the Pope in the stocks though?

KayHarkerTheHeraldAngelsSing · 23/12/2008 13:58

No, UQD.

I might put him in a stock, though. Mmm, tasty.

Upwind · 23/12/2008 13:59

Yep, and the same goes for unmarried heterosexuals. I can't think of any established religion that does not count gay sex as a sin.

In practise I think that in the Catholic church a blind eye is turned. From what I hear it is not uncommon for priests to be actively gay.

And I don't think there is any normal person who would not be a sinner in some way against the teachings of most organised religions.

Upwind · 23/12/2008 14:01

sorry, meant to address that to LadyLauraStandish

LittleJingleBellas · 23/12/2008 14:23

"And I don't think there is any normal person who would not be a sinner in some way against the teachings of most organised religions".

No that's true. You make organised religions sounds so cuddly Upwind...

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LittleJingleBellas · 23/12/2008 14:29

JaneL - not an opportunity for a rant, just an opportunity to mock and point.

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Lucifera · 23/12/2008 14:36

I saw a link to a Times online report on the Pope's speech, and then read some comments, which was even more depressing, as about half of them said "good on him for telling it like it is"!

maamajullah · 23/12/2008 15:00

why would you say that custardo?

MadamePlatypus · 23/12/2008 16:03

"It's almost hilariously ironic that the leader of an organised religion can spout all kinds of superstitious mumbo-jumbo as long as it's "acceptable" mumbo-jumbo, but when he says something about gay people - offensive, but hardly any more mad than anything else the Church comes out with - that's when the media has a field day."

I agree to a point. However, believing in the virgin birth or transubstantiation doesn't really impinge on the way people live their lives. (Well I suppose it did when you could be burned/flogged for not going along with the status quo, but not in 2008 in the UK). However, church teachings on homosexuality, I think, are harmful. (I suppose you could include non-catholic churches in that statement too).

KayHarkerTheHeraldAngelsSing · 23/12/2008 16:17

Having done some actual digging, I'm even more convinced that this is a load of old hooey. By all means, have a critique of official RC teaching on homosexuality, but he didn't even reference homosexuality in what he said.

He was talking about sexuality defined in terms of humans being 'consumers'. It's all so achingly un-controversial I'm astonished anyone has managed to manufacture such a distorted headline. Can't quite believe I'm defending the pope of all people, but he just didn't say anything about homosexuality.

Upwind · 23/12/2008 17:10

So littlejingleBellas I think you should be mocking and pointing at the BBC

How is that taxpayers' funding being justified again?

UnquietDad · 23/12/2008 17:10

I agree it has been slightly "spun" - when it comes down to it, it's basically a "Shock! Horror! Pope IS Catholic!" story. And how one reacts to it depends on how reasonable one finds Catholic belief in general.

As for burned/flogged for not going along with the status quo, I would have to suggest - tentatively - that their current Christmas single is a dull re-tread of the riff from "Burning Bridges".

What?

MrsFreud · 23/12/2008 17:37

It isn't just a spin - here's a quote from a catholic news website..

the Pope said that the Church must teach clearly about the nature of the human person, to counteract the influence of secular ideologies that confuse and diminish human dignity. He spoke specifically about "gender ideology," insisting that God created man and woman as complementary, and the Church "demands that this order of creation be respected" by promotion of marriage and family life.

He is intentionally avoiding the word homosexuality, but you have to be pretty dim to not understand that he is saying that homosexuality is unacceptable. While this is nothing new in the catholic faith, to make gays seem worthless, can't he see the irony then that his previous statement says it is "secular ideas diminish human dignity!!! ". That seems to be his job!

Upwind · 23/12/2008 17:48

MrsFreud - this seems to be the most detailed translation that is yet available:

ncrcafe.org/node/2342

Your crude extrapolation does not do it justice

Tortington · 23/12/2008 18:17

By UnquietDad on Tue 23-Dec-08 13:52:36
"i never ever put stock in the pope, stupid old bigoted bastard"

"Would you put the Pope in the stocks though? "

LOL

erm....no thats not very christian.

LittleJingleBellas · 23/12/2008 18:29

Upwind, can you possibly genuinely think I meant mock and point at the BBC? Do you really think that? Or are you being.... tantantara....drum roll, word of the week.... disingenuous?

Does everyone else think that, or does everyone else on the thread understand that I meant mock and point at the pope? I would have thought that's absolutely clear to anyone not absolutely determined to miss the point.

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smartiejakeonachristmascake · 23/12/2008 18:42

Intolerant little biggot. Don't care if it is catholic doctrine- it has no place in a modern society.

Don't get me started on catholics (yes I was brought up as one but am now a devoted atheist!)

I think the thing that really gets me is the amount of money the catholic church has in their coffers. Why is this not being used for the poor and needy as I think the founder of christianity would have preached.

My friends ds's go to an expensive catholic private school. She was boasting recently that one of the reasons for their amazing resources was that the local diocese donate shedloads of money to the school.

Why should privelidged children from wealthy backgrounds benefit from the collection plate?

Califraukincense · 23/12/2008 19:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Upwind · 23/12/2008 19:05

LittleJingleBellas I KNOW you were mocking and pointing at the Pontiff. This is to be encouraged.

But I also said "I think you should be mocking and pointing at the BBC"

They somehow managed, tabloid fashion to translate this:

"Pope Benedict XVI has said that saving humanity from homosexual or transsexual behaviour is just as important as saving the rainforest "

From this:

"[The church] must defend not only the earth, water and air as gifts of creation that belong to all. It must also defend the human person against its own destruction. What?s needed is something like a ?human ecology,? understood in the right sense. It?s not simply an outdated metaphysics if the church speaks of the nature of the human person as man and woman, and asks that this order of creation be respected. Here it?s a question of faith in creation, in listening to the language of creation, disregard of which would mean self-destruction of the human person and hence destruction of the very work of God. That which is often expressed and understood by the term ?gender? in the end amounts to the self-emancipation of the human person from creation and from the Creator. Human beings want to do everything by themselves, and to control exclusively everything that regards them. But in this way, the human person lives against the truth, against the Creator Spirit. Yes, the tropical forests merit our protection, but the human being as a creature merits no less protection ? a creature in which a message is written which does not imply a contradiction of our liberty, but the condition for it. Great Scholastic theologians defined marriage, meaning the lifetime bond between a man and a woman, as a sacrament of creation, which the Creator instituted and which Christ ? without changing the message of creation ? then welcomed into the story of his covenant with humanity. This witness in favor of the Creator Spirit, present in the nature of this bond and in a special way in the nature of the human person, is also part of the proclamation which the church must offer. Starting from this perspective, it?s important to re-read the encyclical Humanae Vitae : the intention of Pope Paul VI was to defend love against treating sexuality as a kind of consumption, the future against the exclusive demands of the present, and the nature of the human being against manipulation.?

I just can't see anything shocking in that text. Of course it is not politically correct but it would be more newsworthy if it were, given that the Pope is Catholic

There is a grain of an interesting idea in that speech. Without procreation of the influential, there is no incentive to defend future needs against the demands of the present and the desire to consume. The irony being that the Catholic heirarchy have themselves personally chosen against matrimony and procreation. It also conveniently ignores, as so many righteous speeches and texts do, that overpopulation goes hand in hand with overconsumption, but it is interesting all the same.

RaspberryBlower · 23/12/2008 19:10

If we're talking about spin, I'm sure the Vatican must have their own spin doctors and probably knew very well what the media would make of this. The pope's speech is in the headlines. Everyone is talking about the pope. Job done.

I was brought up as a Catholic. I don't have anything to do with the church any more but this kind of thing still embarrasses me.

KayHarkerTheHeraldAngelsSing · 23/12/2008 19:22

Upwind, I'm with you. It's all stuff and nonsense.

Catholic teaching is that marriage or complete celibacy are the only acceptable lifestyles. Think it stupid if you will, but to suggest that just because the pope has referenced 'marriage' means that he's having a pop specifically at homosexuality is great at creating a headline but not good for much more. He was just as much having a go at people who have promiscuous sex.

RaspberryBlower · 23/12/2008 19:25

But Upwind, surely over population is the major factor in over consumption and to ignore this renders the whole thing nonsensical? (I am conveniently ignoring for the sake of this argument the fact that I don't believe in God and therefore find everything the Pope says nonsensical.) Since when has there been any danger of 'the influential', whoever they are, or people in general failing to procreate? Is he worried that everyone will suddenly become gay and stop making babies?

MrsFreud · 23/12/2008 19:34

Upwind...there was no crude extrapolation...I took my text exactly from a leading catholic website, as I was determined to find out exactly what he said.

www.catholicculture.org/news/

If marriage is a sacrament of creation, then why don't the guardians of this religion practise what they preach???

Upwind · 23/12/2008 19:37

RaspberryBlower - when you contrast the extraordinary level of overconsumption in the Western world with that of people in less developed countries the question is not so simple. As far as I remember, America has 5% of the population and consumes 30% of the resources. There does not seem to be a limit to what we will consume when manipulated by marketing geniuses, who very often use sex to sell.

This speech was made in Rome. The Italian population are notoriously NOT procreating much. And I guess that is not because they are mostly devoting themselves to the Catholic church. There was no mention of homosexuality in that speech. As KayHarker pointed out he could just as well have been having a go at modern, relatively promiscuous, lifestyles.

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