Ritalin and other drugs help boost brain power

[Poins]

"Brain boosting drugs need not be feared www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026863.400-brainboosting-drugs-not-to-be-feared.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&n sref=online-news"

I know MT I know -- the whole point is that we don't know enough. It's hardly controversial much less incoherent to say that. Not much evidence for banging the drum. But enough evidence to hold fire.

Wrapstar, I agree. I'm aware of the side effects and have never said the pros and cons shouldn't be weighed up. I expect anyone who would consider taking them would do the same. Most people on here seem to be frowning on any opinion that isn't an outright condemnation, for even considering that some people could benefit from this and still be decent people.

I'm not about to quote Goldacre. It isn;t a secret that many studies have found some positive corrolations, but the studies have not yet established if it is omega acids alone, or other factors that have caused those improvements. Goldacre's spleen is mainly for the Durham trial, which was a shambles although it made outrageous claims to the contrary.

How do you know thay don't have a clinical need? Who are you to condemn them via nothing but ignorance of their circumstances, simply becauise you might hold black and white opinions on drug use per se?

I think people need to be cautious. I'm sure we are all aware of how Prozac, for example, was a wonder-pill we'd all be taking, and Seroxat, when it was launched in the late 90s was described as 'the shyness pill' that would let shy people cast off the shackles of their neuroticism and be the life and soul...until people starting killing themselves while using it, or experiencing crippling withdrawal. Even Proxac has been shown to be less effective than sugar pills for those less than seriously depressed, and even then, it's not much more effective. Let's not believe the hype!

No again WS, it is a bad thing to be cynical. Skepticism is something different altogether. Science thrives on skepticism. Cynicism kills everything it touches.

Some people with depression do respond to placebo, that's a well known phenomenon. That doesn't then cancel out the massive and proven benefits of Prozac or other SSRI's to people suffering depression or managing personality distrubance. Science is always a work in progress yes, but theorthetical change do not cancel out what went before, it is just that, a process.

The media labelled SSR's happy pills etc, underlining the crass ignorance of many 'science' reporters.

"How do you know thay don't have a clinical need? Who are you to condemn them via nothing but ignorance of their circumstances, simply becauise you might hold black and white opinions on drug use per se? "

How pompous, and off-target, because this thread is about people who are taking ritalin PURELY to boost their performance, and not for clinical reasons.

There are no 'massive or proven' benefits to Prozac in studies, actually. The studies show no or very small benefits over placebo. That's the whole point of my post.

Are you refering to the Kirsch/Sapirstein paper WS?

If pompous is all you can throw at me NN then please contunie. I continue to think this could possibly be of great help to people not clinically diagnosed on the autism spectrum, as many aren't or even exhaused mothers trying to concentrate when the kids are in bed so she can improve her quality of life.

yes, as reported here

Pharmaceutical companies have a shamefull history of hiding negative studies of anti-depressants, which may be directly responsible for the deaths of children prescribed SSRIs

shameful

I am not throwing anything at you, MT. We are talking about people who have no clinical need, taking ritalin.

You said "who are you to know that they have no clinical need?"

not very relevant, since by definition, if they have a clinical need, we are not talking about them.

Now you say " continue to think this could possibly be of great help to people not clinically diagnosed on the autism spectrum"

(Ritalin is not just prescribed for autism, but for adhd as well, btw. )

Are you saying here, that people should be encouraged to experiment with prescription drugs, without a diagnosis from a medical practitioner?

If so, then I don't agree with you.

Also, I myself have done OU courses after my 4 children were in bed, and after a full day's work. Silly me, not to think of popping some ritalin to help me get a higher mark

"You said "who are you to know that they have no clinical need?"

not very relevant, since by definition, if they have a clinical need, we are not talking about them."

Can you not see the absurdity of this? Your argument is totally unfalsifiable and equivical. It is impossible to engage with. You have made another leap of imagination with your last question. Now we know that you don't agree with someone who thinks "people should be encouraged to experiment with prescription drugs, without a diagnosis from a medical practitioner". Great. That's not me.

WS, like I said below, one paper does not cancel out all evidence that went before. And the press shouldn't be trusted as their 'spin' on articles is usually ideologically directed.

And if SSRI's actually are no different from placebo, how can it then be responsible for "the deaths of children"? Sugar is just as potent a drug as anti-depressants, as far as this study is concerned. Why not an outcry on sugar with SSRI's?

Just what the alt therapy industry and their placebo pills have been preying for. Maybe that's the conspiracy!

The study seems to throw up more questions that it claims to answer.

monkeytrousers, your posts on this thread have simply been arrogant and insulting all along.

One last try:

we are talking about people who aren't even pretending to have a clinical need for ritalin. They are taking it, because they believe that by doing so, their already good academic results will be made better.

This has been reported in the press as already happening, and this kind of use is being encouraged by articles like the one that started this thread.

So, it is you who is being illogical, to start trying to confuse the issue with people who have a genuine, DIAGNOSED, clinical need.

I asked you a question about your post:
Are you saying here, that people should be encouraged to experiment with prescription drugs, without a diagnosis from a medical practitioner?

I asked you this question precisely BECAUSE I had not made a leap of imagination - I was interested to know the answer!

Are you interested in answering the question, and explaining what you did mean, or do you just want to post another load of pseudo-intellectual insults?

Who is 'we' NN, becasue it's mostly been you and me, and I haven't defined the discussion in those terms at all.

I'm not trying to be insulting, and if you are insulted I'm sorry. I just cant take this discussion serioulsy when everyoine is being so earnest and po-faced about it. I've been ribbing you is all. It has been a tad too easy though.

You say "this kind of use is being encouraged by articles like the one that started this thread." - how is it? To really believe that you mave to imagine the people reading it to be gullible idiots. And I've been called patronising. It's laughable. It really is.

I don't think people are gullible idiots, even if they have a problem concentrating for whatever reason and think taking Modalert or Ritalin will help them. I have no problem thinking people are very capable of weighing up the pros and cons of their life decisions without any guidence from me.

Had you asked me that question I would have answered, no. As it was you asked it and answered it yourself. But I did answer it when I said "Now we know that you don't agree with someone who thinks "people should be encouraged to experiment with prescription drugs, without a diagnosis from a medical practitioner". Great. That's not me."

Call me all the names you want. I can't believe you are taking this so seriosuly to be honest.

Well NN did say she couldn't say you seriously at first! Maybe we should have just ignored you!

I take it seriously despite my tone on here because really it's a serious issue, if people are taking it or being encouraged to take it without clinical need. It's much easier to take the subject as a joke, or say you're taking it as a joke, when you've tried to put forward points that have collapsed a bit. Your tone hasn't really been that light-hearted. You called me incoherent and used terms like crass and implied I think other people are stupid! And you said bloody!

I've been pretty honest and upfront about the gaps in my knowledge, and sarcasm is a bit unnecessary, but I suppose if that's the way you go then so be it.

I'm not taking the issue as a joke, just the multitude of piousness on here. I can only come to the conclusion that some people like to be offended, they get offended so quickly

stuffit, of course you are right that it's serious. Here's a recent report on the bbc about the social, as opposed to the scientific aspect of the same story:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7684963.stm and the independent: www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/ritalin-abuse-hits-students-looking-for--an-exam -kick-537088.html.
what on earth is wrong with students these days, they dont even have the stamina for an all night essay crisis, lol.

Or poor students who have to work every night to get by as apposed to those who have support from their parents?

The thing is, me giving my opinion, is not the same as encouraging anyone to do anything - but you seem to think it is. I am, and would not, deem to patronise anyone by being so prescritove with my opinions. They're just that, opinions, not instructions.

You coming into the thread and on your first post saying something so obvioulsy hystronic as, to paraphrase, if yoyu take them you risk dying, is just jumping to a massive and, in my opinion again , ridciulous place - note, I'm not saying you are ridiculous, but the tactic of scaremongering in discussions.

And it also forgets the basic fact that life is about taking risks. Students have been taking speed and coke for decades, drugs that have far more dangerous side effects that Ritalin.

If you are against drug taking/risk taking then thats fine. You are entitled to that opinion. But then trying to persuade others that your opinion is the right one by scaremongering doesn't gibe you the high moral ground, though I think you want to inhabit it.

Anb for the the record, I'm not saying my opinion on this is the 'right' one. It's just my opinion. Most people are intellegent enough to take it or leave it and not immediatly think I'm working for the dark side.

I would never put any of my kids on Ritalin as it is amphetamine based.