Oh FFS I am shaking... has there been a thread yet about Minette Marin's unbelievable column on babies with Down's syndrome?

[emkana]

words fail me

Minette Mirren has so many opinions that make me , and shouldn't be paid to do what she does.
She must be an unhappy woman I always think to have such sad opinions.
She comes across as bitter and resentful of so many groups, mothers and women for starters

I suspect that she has looked at the statistic that 91% of mothers abort>>

Doesn't that statistic mean your view is a minority one? It's not my statistic, but it would appear to say that 9 out 10 people believe aborting to be the sensible option.

I wonder what David Cameron, and Gordon Brown, would say in response - both having "damaged" families themselves?

someone said further down this thread that they admire those people who have children with disabilities. Can someone explain why people who have disabled children should be admired? because tbh I don't really get it.

I think that it can be acknowledged that parents of a severely disabled child have to deal with things that other parents do not (many of which are brought about by the lack of support from local services), and I admire the fact that most of them seem to be able to refrane from decking someone in social services, or some of the ignorant people they must come across in their day-to-day lives, but at the end of the day everyone is a parent and we all parent our children, be they disabled or otherwise - and the parent of a disabled child doesn't love them any less than if they weren't disabled so what is so admirable about that?

Well, MM herself is clearly emotionally and intellectually 'damaged' but still seems to be living what she considers a 'full life'.

Maybe she needs to be put out of her misery? That woman is just wrong on so many levels.

Years ago my sister had a baby with a major chromosome defect, the kind most people would terminate for (generally incompatible with life). She went to term, and the baby died at 6 weeks, but we'd all had a chance to get to know him, and it was peaceful and somehow 'right' when it did happen. But I was staggered by the number of medical personnel (and others) who couldn't get their heads round the fact that she hadn't had a termination at 24 weeks, mainly on the basis that 'well, it's going to die anyway'. Now I may be missing something here, but are we not all going to die anyway?

[boggle emoticon]

I don't know what I would do if I found out that I was carrying a bby with Down's. I would wander if I would be able to cope. At the same time could I live with myself if I terminated? BUT I don't believe that keeping a baby with Down's is a 'bad choice' how incredibly patronising. My older brother had Down's and my mum was pressured to 'institutionalise' him. She refused, and says it's the best decision she ever made. (He died at 19 months old due to a hole in his heart)

Frogs - I'm very moved by that story.

Wrt to Ms Marrin - it seems to me that if you take her viewpoint to its logical, illogical conclusion, then given that none of us can guarantee having a perfect child, why take the risk at all? Just offer every woman a termination at 12 weeks, in case little Johnny or Jimmy turns out to be a ne'er-do-well smackhead, or whatever. Bingo, no more "damaged children in damaged families".

"Doesn't that statistic mean your view is a minority one? It's not my statistic, but it would appear to say that 9 out 10 people believe aborting to be the
sensible option." tbh I think that there's a lot of medical pressure to abort. The mere fact that a fetus can be terminated for severe disabilities up to term when the cutoff for any other termination is 24 weeks, sends out the message that the life of the disabled fetus is already less worthwhile than that of the "normal" one.

frogs- exactly, that's it. Doctors can't cope with things that don't quite fit the medical model (fix it) which is why they're generally so crap with understanding LDs. I saw the most amazing website about a boy with trisomy 13 who live for about 3 months- and was so loved in that time. For me that would have been a far better option than a late termination and would have been less likely to have screwed me up, but I know that had I ever been in that situation I would have come under massive pressure to terminate.

The alternatives are not presented equally and there tends to be an assumption that we all want to be 'saved' from the effects of a disability (as if a termination will have no effect on someone).

TBH dealing with a severely disabled child day in day out has given me a perspective that seems to mean I am happier than many of those around me. I resent the assumption that because our lives are day in day out harder we must all be walking tragedies. We're not- we're just a family who muddle through where everyone seems to be relatively happy with their lot.

I am PMSL at Wannabe's admiration for us refraining from decking various people. I'm rather proud of myself for that

I think there is a lot of pressure to abort.

When I was pg with dd1 (14 years ago, argh) I was called in for the blood test (nuchal scan didn't exist then). When I declined the screening test I was ushered into a little side room, where I was told to wait for a more senior member of staff. Who promptly arrived and lectured me for 15 mins on how good the screening tests were -- and they weren't, in those days, there was a v. high incidence of false positives. When I stuck to my guns, she said, 'Oh, you must want this baby very much', with the distinct implication that I was clearly so desperate for a baby that I was prepared to accept a substandard one.

No MN in those days, but I could have posted a cracking AIBU. Actually nowadays I'd probably have written in to make a formal complaint.

great (old) piece about DS which Minette Marin needs to read

It was me who said they admired people. I'm not sure exactly why. Maybe because when I read posts on here from people like 2shoes and I see what prejudice they sometimes receive and how difficult day to day things like simply bathing a child can be I feel they should be admired for they are doing an admirable job. I hope I haven't come across as patronising and condescending, I am not explaining myself well. But people who do excellent jobs in the face of some adversity should be admired. Oh god, I'm going to stop talking shit now, but the sentiment is good .

I can't see the problem with the article. Many people would prefer to terminate their pregnancies if they discovered that the baby would be born with DS, and that is their right and choice.

What it is not, is a judgement on all of the loved and loving children with DS who have already been born and are already with us.

Wht restrict this argument to special needs? Why not just censure all women who choose to terminate for any reason, becuase all of the children we already have are so wonderful and we couldn't dream of wishing them away.

It's become like we aren't allowed to discuss DS in anything other than positive terms.

My friend who works with teenagers and adults with a wide range of physical and learning disabilities says that she would have tests and would terminate if she thought her child would have DS. This isn't becuase she is scared of or hates these children, or wishes that they didn't exist. On the contrary, she loves her students and cares passionately for them. But she sees how hard it is on families and from that she makes her own judgement.

I don't know what I'd do in the same position, but I have had a termination in the past for what the woman-hating tabloid press would no doubt call 'lifestyle reasons'. I don't care for that term any more than I care for 'eugenic reasons'. We have the right to test and to terminate, and it is not a judgement on anybody else's kids, it's how we feel about our own lives.

from what I've read, and from experiences of friends screening tests (tripple test for eg) are still very unreliable.

A friend had a 1-127 risk for downs when she was pg with her second baby. The mw rang her at home and said something to the effect of "it's a very high result given your age, so what you really should do is discuss it with your husband and decide whether or not you wish to proceed with the pregnancy given these odds." Friend was gobsmacked given that the baby hadn't even been diagnosed as having ds and here the mw was trying to talk her into a termination over the phone.

She went for a scan and it turned out her dates were out by about a week, which in turn had totally skewed the tripple test result.

Really, MZ? You can't see why so many of us object to loaded language like "damaged children in damaged families"?

for every article written by people who regret the decision to abort I am sure you can find one written by someone who doesn't.

It's an individual thing IMO and clearly the person in that article did not get the counselling nor support she clearly needed when making that decision.

I really think it's quite appalling that the anaesthetist just before the operation asked the writer if she was really sure. That is SO unprofessional I am absolutely gobsmacked.

the article is also written by someone who uses the phrase "to murder my unborn baby" and so clearly this opinion will be at odds with those women who don't view it as Murder.

She also says "I've no doubt that had I been offered professional counselling at any stage, my experience might have been different. But I didn't know to ask for it and it certainly wasn't suggested. " and as I said earlier this was clearly not offered and that was wrong.

I personally find the term 'eugenics' to be very loaded, but I see it used in numerous articles about terminating babies with DS.

To refer to damaged children is insensitive, but imo does not warrant this outcry. My friend will attest to the damage that caring for a disabled child can do to families.

You may argue that all kids are hard work and I agree - but should we then criticise all women who terminate their pregnancies, becuase those who did carry their pregnancies to term managed to struggle through and wouldn't wish their children away?

I know, Fio, it is such shoddy writing and argument you would hate to give it to anyone impressionable to read!

"the stupid thing is, you can test until the cows come home for this that and the other, but you can not test for the hospital cocking up and "damaging "you babies brain.
so at the end of the day all the talk about choice is a waste of time imo."

like I said earlier in the thread. The tests you CAN have DO offer a choice at that stage. We would be very stupid people if we went through life worrying about what might happen in teh future RE the birth, getting hit by a bus, or any other thing which may happen to those we love. But as far as screening while pregnant goes there IS choice at that point and people really shouldn't be denying other women that choice.

MorrisZapp, read the thread - we are criticising MM's article, not women who decided to terminate.