Oh FFS I am shaking... has there been a thread yet about Minette Marin's unbelievable column on babies with Down's syndrome?

[emkana]

words fail me

no it is not a general abortion debate as no one is talking about aborting NT babies.

No, it is true that MM doesn't say in so many words that termination would be the better option. But she doesn't leave us in much doubt that that is her view, does she?

"Most pregnant women instinctively understand all this. That?s why nearly all choose abortion. Those who choose differently should understand they are choosing hardship, perhaps great hardship, for their child and for their other children."

havnt read the whole thread but the woman who wrote the article doesnt seem to have a clue. Its not really a very good message to push across either.

When I was pregnant with dd I didnt bother with all the tests during pregnancy becuase I knew I would keep her whatever. People should be supported in thier choice if they have a child with downs syndrome not made to feel like their child is not normal.

Stupid insensitive woman! Emkana your little boy is adorable!

The vast majority of abortions are on NT babies, I would have thought? If this is death, murder and shooting then clearly this is a general debate on abortion.

Having an abortion is in my view totally unrelated to killing or shooting children who are alive and with us.

Anybody who thinks that that is a valid comparison is presumably pro-life regardless of tests or disbilities.

lol georgimama

It is not an opinion. It is a fact supported by law and science. You are the one with a vacuous opinion, desperatly trying to give it more credence than is worth. Lets stay clear of wish fulfullment as fact here.

But are we saying that she is not entield to that view SSB? She is. People can disagree with her, try to twist her arguments all they want - but she says what she says and no more than that. It is an issue and especially an ethical one. Her having an opinion ion that does not mean if she had the chance she would force all women to abort fetus's or that she thinks they should. It's an abstract discussion.

You don't think her pov is that they should?

I don;t know if many people think it would be a good thing to be able to shut people up? Are there many people on this thread who think that?

I find it hers an abhorrent view and it makes me sad and angry that she promulgates it in a newspaper and thus plays a role in forming other people's opinions.

That's really quite funny, MT, on one hand you make personal attacks on me because you don't like my views, and then you tell SSB that Minette Marren is entitled to voice her opinions and that people should not attempt to silence disent.

The only difference is that you agree with MM and you don't agree with me.

She's entitled to state this without any experience at all:

"Most pregnant women instinctively understand all this. That?s why nearly all choose abortion. Those who choose differently should understand they are choosing hardship, perhaps great hardship, for their child and for their other children."

And I am entitled to state quite categorically that my experience of a parenting a child with a disability more severe than DS tells me that she is talking out of her behind. I do not remotely feel that hardship features in the life of any of my children. They have a very privileged life.

Thank goodness India Knight has a column as well and has the voice to broadcast this view. The world according to MM (having read various pieces on her website) is not a world I would remotely choose to partake in. It's a vile vision.

MT, the law is made up of peoples opinions not facts.

SSB, I am of the firm belief that the more information we have the better when it comes to making opiions, even information that might jar or challenge you. You know there are a series of logical hoops arguments need to go through to be valid, nothing to do with being emotive, which is one of her main points. I don't think she is saying what many people on this thread think she is saying. She certainly isn't saying dsiabled people or children should be murdered or don't have a right to exist.

G, how do you know if I agree with her or not? What I do disagree with are idiotic statements about false equivalences between abortion and murder, which have no backinfg in logic, ethics or plain common sense. As for personal attacks; whether those who utter (or write) such statements are idiots themselves I am not in a position to judge - but if you happened to feel a glint of recognotion, thats down to you not me.

Well, Asperger syndrome is a form of learning disability, so if you feel that the best way to describe me is an 'idiot' I expect that's correct on some level, Monkeytrousers. But I've written how I feel, all the same.

Sorry Amber, but where did you get the impression I was addressing you? I was addressing Georgimama. Is that you?

She stated her feelings quite clearly. That a damaged baby means a damaged family.

What can be misunderstood about that?

She may not have said that disabled people should be murdered but the wording that she used was just dreadful and offensive.

I am not anti abortion.

I am not against testing ante-natally.

I am, however, sickened by her comments.

As a parent of a child with a 'syndrome' I met as many people as I could in a similar situation because I wanted to know the facts of his condition. I wanted to meet people that deal with it every day, that live it. What most people are getting at here is that quite often decisions are being made without the correct, up to date information given.

If ante-natally we had been told of DS2's condition we would have been totally devastated. We wouldn't have talked about termination (I don't think) but I believe that the information I could google about di-georges syndrome would paint a far bleaker story than the life he and we are living.

But just to clarify - if you are of the belief that abportion and murder are the same, that is indeed an ridiculous assumtion. Whether you (or I, for that matter) are somewhere on the autism spectrum or suffering from any other learning difficulty has nothing to do with it.

mt the woman referred to babies with ds as damaged. And then went on to say that these damaged babies created damaged families.

Whatever people's feelings are on termination for disability, there is no excuse to use that kind of language. "damaged" indeed - this is not dolls or toys we are talking about here these are children. And even if they are born with a disability they are still children.

And to top it all off this woman isn't posting from her own experience, oh no. if she herself had had a disabled child and found it difficult to cope and had considered that that child had caused her family to be damaged, then one might find it in oneself to have some sympathy with her situation, but she isn't, she's posting from the perspective of someone who knows someone who might have had a hard time with a disabled child. That's totaly different.

The woman is totally entitled to her opinion that she personally would terminate a pregnancy in the event of a disability being detected.

She is not, IMO, entitled to the opinion that a "damaged" baby equals a "damaged" family, because although that might be her perception from people she has known, it is not a global reality, and therefore it is insulting to those whose children have enriched their lives rather than "damaged" them.

Why would I get my information from people who know nothing about these conditions though? I may as well ask someone standing in the shop queue as listen to MM.

If I wanted information on what it's like to be a parent of a child with SN, I'd ask other parents.

Yett when other parents give their views they're seen as biased or somehow not able to see their situation clearly or in denial. Or told 'well it's not always like that you know'. I know plenty of people who find life difficult/feel trapped/miserable who don't have a disabled child, so I don't know why any problems in a family dealing with disability are always assumed (often by outsiders) to be the fault of the child with the disability. It's as if we can't quite see how awful our situation really is Our opinions aren't trusted unless we're agreeing that our lives really are dreadful.

For anyone looking for information on what it's like to raise a child with a severe learning disability I would say challenging, funny, different, interesting, rewarding and loving. You feel just the same about the child with the disability as you do about your other children. You have hopes for them and you're proud of them (just the same as any other child). It's actually identical to raising another child emotionally. The only difference is in the practicalities. But yes it is possible (although harder) to work full time (I do). It is possible (although harder) to do whatever is important to you.

Why would I get my information from people who know nothing about these conditions though? I may as well ask someone standing in the shop queue as listen to MM.

If I wanted information on what it's like to be a parent of a child with SN, I'd ask other parents.

Yett when other parents give their views they're seen as biased or somehow not able to see their situation clearly or in denial. Or told 'well it's not always like that you know'. I know plenty of people who find life difficult/feel trapped/miserable who don't have a disabled child, so I don't know why any problems in a family dealing with disability are always assumed (often by outsiders) to be the fault of the child with the disability. It's as if we can't quite see how awful our situation really is Our opinions aren't trusted unless we're agreeing that our lives really are dreadful.

For anyone looking for information on what it's like to raise a child with a severe learning disability I would say challenging, funny, different, interesting, rewarding and loving. You feel just the same about the child with the disability as you do about your other children. You have hopes for them and you're proud of them (just the same as any other child). It's actually identical to raising another child emotionally. The only difference is in the practicalities. But yes it is possible (although harder) to work full time (I do). It is possible (although harder) to do whatever is important to you.

quite jimjams.

People on here don't have much respect for the authors of childcare books who don't have their own children do they?

So why would this be any different?

Maybe a bit simplistic but ykwim?

well said jimjams. Those without a disabled child don't have any idea. Even people who work with disabled children don't know what its like to parent a disabled child, the feelings you have and what its like for your family.
And MM writing 'damaged child' Someone with Down's syndrome is as they are meant to be. They are not 'damaged'. Now if they have a brain injury you might say the brain is 'damaged' and has led to cerebral palsy but the child is a child is a child. They are not 'a damaged child' that then damages their family. FFS

Exactly the point I was trying to make. A chromosmal abnormality is just that. Chromosomes that also decide whether we have blue or brown eyes. It is how he was made, how he is, and his DNA.

The bloody DLA forms and statementing cause far more problems than DS2.

have been lurking on this thread, been a v emotional read at times - dsis has Down's symndrome.
thanks nmc, jimjam, wannabe for your eloquence - you have said it all better than I ever could.