Majority of women if Afgan jails there for being victims of rape

[Monkeytrousers]

Glad the mainstream press have finally picked up on this

MT - the majority of arms (and drugs) come not from the West.

You still haven't told me what the benefits to the average westerner (apart from the removal of the boogyman) of the collapse of the soviet union were.

D'you really think Russia is about to drop a nuclear bomb on Poland? I think on balance, it's unlikely.

wow mt
i wish i knew the stuff you do
thats how id talk if i had owt to talk about.
shame i pissed my life away, huh.
id have made a good lawyer (if it were like the movies)
and so would you

"I coulda been a contender"

'we coulda been anyfing that we wanned to be...'

DaddyJ, are you suggesting that anyone who is concerned about the plight of Afghani women should shut up and concentrate on looking pretty?

Or that it's OK for rape victims to be slung in jail, because it's an 'ethnic' or 'cultural' issue?

"Women, know your place" springs to mind.

It wouldn't matter if you offended me, MT, what I am concerned about is that
your language offends people whose goodwill we need.
Moderate Muslims, Muslims who are against fundamentalism - those brave RAVA people for example.

No, you haven't defined what you actually mean by a Muslim state. Let alone in measured terms.

I salute you for posting that article and I completely agree that it's an outrage
and whatever action you want to take to make a difference go ahead and take it with my full support.
That's not the issue here (hope that answers your question, edam)

I condemn you, MT, for implying that it's a 'Muslim state' thing.
In the case of Afghanistan it is not that simple. If you don't know why, educate yourself.
I am pleased to see you talking about 'much more study [needed] on my part', that's the kind of humility
I was missing earlier and it certainly is much less grating than cocky, inflammatory statements
such as 'it is true of all Muslim states sadly'.

This business of your valiant fight against political correctness,
sorry to be direct, MT, but it is very tedious.
I sincerely hope you 'will never have to do so again', i.e. involve us in your internal dialogue
about Amis and PCness.

LittleBella (love your name btw), I am sure the Poles will be relieved to hear it.

Given how nonchalantly you dismissed the very real threat of nuclear holocaust
that was hovering over us during the Cold War, I don't think you will be receptive to any other arguments.

Let me ask you: if the Soviet Union wasn't actually that big a problem
why did the US support a bunch of murderous fundamentalists in Afghanistan in their war against the Soviets?

Funny how it's women who need to be humble, isn't it, DaddyJ? Because we are clearly too thick to get to grips with the issues of the day. Can barely spell pollytics/politicks/oh bugger, that stuff you gentlemen talk about.

Sadly, liberals and the left have a long history of condoning the oppression of women. Couldn't possibly object to the ill-treatment of women in any developing nation, because it's all OUR fault, with our pesky history of colonialism. And pointing out crimes against the female half of humanity might upset some of our revolutionary 'friends'. So best shut the ladies up and tell them to get on with the cooking.

You need to go back to elementary philosophy, DaddyJ, that's a fallacious argument. Or, in terms ladies might stand a chance of grasping, putting the cart before the horse.

No of course you are right Dittany ? but in my defence (sorry, I am feeling all defensive tonight!_ I refer you too to the comment about not containing the totality of views in one comment. You?d think no on knew me around here. Tsk

But women are not passive peace like creatures, as we on MN know well. If women had had the job that men have had for time immemorial (and bearing in mind that we made them bigger and more strong so they would have to deal with it so we didn?t have to ? and also ((deferring any angry Harry)) that men jumped at the chance to do so anyway, in sufficient numbers to make it an inexorable general rule) they would actually BE men themselves, it?s not a point that gets very far?hope you could keep up with the parenthesis there

It?s when the men go away to war zones that women get very vulnerable ? both at home (from the ?inferior? men left behind and without family protection) to away (the subjugation of the enemy ?rape has always been a sanctioned ?perk? of service for invading armies ? our god son?s one and all). (Stats again) that women become especially vulnerable. Maybe the best policy would be the Swiss one, I dunno.

Happy ? how old are you? I bet I can beat you in wasting life away terms then turning it around ? by even a small degree which I have..all.I?ve been doing in the kids holidays is reading Jane Austin (for the first time) and I find myself very much borrowing of Darcy?s syntax which is a good exercise in brevity actually ? but most people (as in P&P) will come away thinking you are a prize wanker!

It?s never too late. I actually am a good advertisement for that ? even though, I have to say, I know pretty much nothing.

Sorry, edam, what women? Are you a bloke? Or just confused?
This is an anonymous board I have no idea nor do I care about the gender of fellow posters.

I am talking about the West, edam.
About the arrogance of Westerners to point the finger at those 'Muslim states'.
When it was the West who had a major hand in ensuring that this particular state failed in the first place.

And the question is: is it Islam that has turned Afghanistan so (undoubtedly) toxic?
Or is it, at least partly, Western meddling?

Well, DJ, I would say those whose good will we need, will give it on hearing a great deal of logic and not PC bluster. I?m still not backing your horse, sorry.

We will simply have to agree to disagree. There is no sensible argument to be had. You direct me to Wiki to educate myself. I don?t know what to say that won?t sound patronising so I won?t say anything at all. But at least you know not to trouble yourself with my opinion the next time you happen upon it hereabouts

Edam - ?Sadly, liberals and the left have a long history of condoning the oppression of women.?

Too right! I am fast becoming unpartisan and it?s fooking terrifying not to have that safely net to direct you in times of news at 10 crisis..but I stopped watching news at 10 over a year ago so I?m sure I will fill the void with some other foolishness quite soon enough..as Mr Bennet would say

I used "women" and "we" in successive sentences, DaddyJ, that should have given you a clue.

I'm not at all confused - I can see clearly that a man is telling women to shut up about the oppression of women. Because it's all our fault, as Westerners. Although if women are too stupid to be allowed to get involved in politics, how the hell we can be held responsible for US or UK foreign policy is beyond me.

Ah, MT, you always sound like you enjoy a good debate
but when the moment you get challenged you get cross.
Come on, don't be cross. I didn't mean to patronise you.

Sadly, you have still not defined Muslim state so I will just take it
that you mean any country with a Muslim majority?

The Wiki entry directs you to the particular era that is relevant to our discussion (late 70s)
and gives you a pretty good overview of how this 'Muslim state' was in the process
of becoming secular with a real emphasis on women's rights.

This process was fatally interrupted..and that's my beef.

[cheers MT and edam]

No, edam, that's certainly a misunderstanding there.

The bleak fate of Afghan women deserves all the debate in the world,
please please continue talking about it on this thread!

The debate we are having is about how Afghanistan ended up like this.
Men and women are invited to contribute, no one is excluded because of their gender.

'There is no sensible argument to be had.'

Au contraire, it has been a very refreshing thread
with the most enlightened post being the one about RAWA.
Astonishingly brave women - and Muslims to boot!

Ta, MT.

"why did the US support a bunch of murderous fundamentalists in Afghanistan in their war against the Soviets"

The US has a penchant for supporting murderous lunatics all over the world. It's got form on this. Quite a lot of form.

I have an embarrassing internet crush on edam.

Cross? Cross? I was having a great time DJ! Two big grins in my last post should have alerted you to that fact. Sheesh

I have defined my terms very well. You are the only one having trouble with them. So lets leave the white man's burdon where it belongs and get back to the real issue at hand - the women, not the history of Afghanistan. Start a new thread on that if you wish.

DaddyJ do you realise just how amazingly patronising you sound? Even if I agreed with you (which I don't) I would be completely put off by your attitude and have to disagree with you on principal. Thank the Lord for MT, Edam etc.

lol

And looking again at your response, I did not feel patronsied by your post, (though it looks like I am in a minority there) but stopped for fear of sounding patronising to you.

But I think this aptly demonstratates your egocntric bias of sensibility on the thread as a whole. So thanks for that. See you on your thread.