Work for dole

[ReallyTired]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7514513.stm

I think that proposals like these are long over due. Although I think that if you make people work full time for their benefits they won't have time to look for job.

Prehaps they should work three days a week and look for a job two days a week.

There are people who for good reasons cannot work full time, but certainly could do something part time.

Oh I did mention expat, what Bright House were about and the rates they charged - that was the point I was called a snob.

Because for "£11 per week we can have a 42" plasma telly." This was because I have a flat-screen tv, don't know what size but definitely not that big as I wouldn't have it - it was bought outright a couple of years ago before the split, I got custody.

Plus all the other stuff they have, there are those loan companies, the extortionate ones, who come and collect every week. And there is someone on the street who has one of those buy as you view tvs, which I don't really get how they would work but it would have been cheaper for them to save the money up and buy outright.

So I can see why they are all on long-term benefits as their debt must be scary but then again it comes down to personal responsibility and I'll do without rather than accept the loan (which will turn into another one and then another one as this is how they work.) My parents are older than most in my generation so I've always had that wartime value of buying when you can afford it. At the moment I afford extras by selling clothes and items we no longer need on eBay and hoping I make enough.

I have noticed that there is this strange phenomena, hopefully isolated to just this street, where children of working parents no longer see the point in getting a job.

One girl left school a few years ago and signed on with "anxiety" - both her parents are very hard-working.

Another boy is also lounging about despite both his parents working as he "can't earn enough."

Hey, they should have tried living back when at 16 you were shoved into a YTS for £27.50 per week and see how they like it earning that!

'I have noticed that there is this strange phenomena, hopefully isolated to just this street, where children of working parents no longer see the point in getting a job.'

I can sort of see where this point of view comes from, but at the same time, it'd be nice if they were encouraged to get a better-paying job.

I saw this when we lived in a deprived estate. People saw their parents working their tails off and basically getting nowhere for it - they still lived next to degenerates who did FA and had the same lifestyle.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but I see where it comes from.

It sounds like UK's safety net has become too comfortable, if it such a great alternative to earning a living.

I don't think it's so much that it's a great alternative to making a living as that it's entirely possible to have more financially from benefits than if you are working poor.

Things like free school meals, free prescriptions, free job training/discounted college or university courses so you can get a higher-paying job, minimal council tax, not having to worry about the Tax Credit Office coming back to you years later and saying 'Whoops! We failed to respond to you and overpaid you so now you'll be living below the poverty line', not being a priority for socialised housing so you are privately renting and living constantly with the threat of being told to move on after 6 months (and the expense and disruption that go with it) can add up to a lot of money, especially if you are living just on the cusp as it is.

So some would see that, see their folks struggling and their neighbours not so much so and think, 'What's the point?'

Again, not saying I agree with it, but there's a reason behind it.

There is a difference between those who are 100% independent of Mum and Dad and those who live at home claiming income support.

Our neighbour's daughter is unemployed and on income support. She has been unemployed since May. She wants to work in a film studio and although there are two film studios near us she has not yet secured a post. The competition is just so fierce. There are loads of far less glamerous jobs in our area that she could do in the meantime.

However she is getting all the benefits of living at home and the income support she is getting is effectively pocket money. Mum does her washing, feeds her and provides housing free. There is no way she needs as much cash as an independent adult who has to live on the money.

Parents are expected to financially support their universtiy students who are under 25 and have not worked for three years. Maybe parents should be forced to support their over 18 neets in a similar way.

That obligation on parents is only for those in Scotland however. There is no duty on any parent in England to support an adult child whether a student or not.

Well, I sure hope my kids aren't expecting any help from us once they get to adulthood, in the financial sense that is.

For DD1, it's already looking like she'll have a real shot at modelling - not the fake, stripper kind, but the real type, and I won't hesitate to put this to her as soon as she reaches 5ft., 9in., as it's a good way for a girl of her abilities to make some good money if she is managed properly.

DD2 is clever. We'll need to work out a way for her to use this to her advantage instead of going the route I have.

"My understanding is that the proposal to make people on benefits work is based on the same understanding - that if people are being paid a salary, that they should be expected to work for it." Since when has £50 a week or whatever been a salary?! If that's OK then why burden employers with the minimum wage?

Now I happen to believe that people on benefits are probably better off than many people who work. But that doesn't make it OK to exploit them! In fact it means that the State would be no worse off if it employed those people and paid them proper wages. Thereby evaporating another ridiculous argument.

Twinglemegan, its not just the £50, its housing benefit, exception from council tax, free school meals, free prescriptions and all the freebies that the rest of us have to work for.

Personally I would prefer that that long term claimants were made to work 20 hours a week to give them time to look for something better. Prehaps they could work three days a week and look for work for two.

But no one is forcing them, they could always get bar work, get cleaning job, work in a supermarket, do exam invigilating or some other casual work like working on a building site.

Well done TwoBySea for sticking to your principles concerning loans, etc.

It is a sad fact that children of working parents are choosing to scrounge because they see it, not surprisingly, as the easy option. The system therefore stinks, but, more importantly, as I've said before, the stigma behind claiming has gone. And why has it gone? For a number of reasons, but primarily, because of the sheer amounts of families living in this way. This is why its so important to break the spiral. Unless people have a GENUINE reason for claiming, they should feel embarassed that they do so. In past years, this is why people who were made redundant one week, found work, any work, the following week, to prevent them signing on.

I am fully aware of how unfair the system is. My father worked all of his life, fully supported his large family and paid lots into the tax system. When he became terminally ill, we had to literally fight for his allowances to care/benefits (which I have to say were minimal because he had lived prudently and saved a bit). However, a married couple who live nearby and have never worked have just given birth to their 6th child and live in a decent 3 storey house and drive a nice car. It illustrates just how badly the benefit system stinks, although the difference is that my father could look back and be proud of what he achieved - not what the state gave him.

'One girl left school a few years ago and signed on with "anxiety" - both her parents are very hard-working.'

i dont understand this comment-if you sign on then you are looking for work,so what does anxiety have to do with anything?

A lot of this dependency culture has been engineered deliberately by the Labour govt in an attempt to secure power for itself for as long as possible. I guess they hope that people won't kill the Golden Goose but they could be in for a shock, next election.

expatinscotland, the person i was referring to in my last post has a partner who runs an online business (which isn't v successful - v little profit), and yet they have their mortgage and a car. anyone can buy a car but its the general upkeep and maintenance i don't get how they can afford it?? surely on JSA and CTC and CB it can't amount to being able to pay for these outgoings and also having Sky plus TV!!!
We don't even have Sky plus. It's beggars belief. Makes me sooo angry when people are living that way and getting benefits chucked in their direction just because they can't be bothered getting a job. grrrr

divastrop, not all people who sign on are looking for work, they just give the impresson that they are looking for work so that they can get money for nothing.

divastrop, I meant signed on for incapacity benefit - not for looking for work. Sorry.

I will gladly support my dts when they get to school leaving age but I hope they have ambition to want to do something as I wouldn't allow them to sit around the house wasting time, if this girl ReallyTired knows wants work in a film studio then why doesn't she find something in the meantime - there are always backdoors to jobs but they won't come looking for you. My situation is so because of childcare and nothing else, had I a dp or dh then I would have plenty opportunities but childcare is not flexible for hours which is why I am getting my degree to change direction.

I think there are parents out there who don't want their children to go on and do something because then how they wasted their lives can be justified.

you can't get a mortgage if you are on benefits, scottish, so at one point one of them must have been earning enough in a job or from a business to qualify for one.

and if they bought an ex-council place, then chances are that mortgage might be low.

it's hard to know for sure without personally knowing them. who knows, a relative might have given them some money.

as for their car, again, who knows? maybe it has no loan on it, in which case, third-party insurance, tax, MOT and petrol are their running costs.

perhaps they don't spend much, in which case it would be entirely possible to be able to afford to run a car.

or they could be cheating and one of them claiming as a lone parent.

ok,i just wondered why the "anxiety"?you cant get IB unless youve worked and paid NI for at least 26 weeks before applying,and it is alot more comlicated than 'signing on'.

i havent heard of any cases of somebody fraudulently claiming IB or IS due to mental health problems,but i have heard of many cases of people with genuine MH problems being forced back into work before they are ready because the system is so crap.

You don't just decide to 'sign up' or 'sign on' for IB or IS.

You apply for all benefits and then hear back as to whether your application is successful.

For example, someone who has just been made redundant will likely achieve a successful application for contribution-based JSA, v. someone who has just become a lone parent may have a successful application for IS (or not, depending on the age of their children).

expat, i know the couple (relatives) but they tend to keep themselves to themselves (now we know why!!lol) they don't particularly want others knowing their business. strange couple with kids...
anyway back to the point of discussion, i just can't wait for alll this to come into action where people are made to get off their backside and work, even if only for a few days a week. if anything, it will help their self esteem and make them worthy in society. any job is better than no job to help put something back into the economy.
for those genuinely seeking employment i don't think there's a great problem with claiming JSA, if it means helping them in the short term til they find a job to help with the cost of living.
can't stand the scroungers though

tbh,most of the genuine scroungers i know whouldnt have a clue what self-esteem is,they would think its another long word the snobs use

What happens is that people legimately claim incapacity benefit for illnesses like clinical depression, back pain, ME or subsitute any other non permament medical condtion. There is no way that someone with severe depression is fit to work, but many people to do get better. Someone with a back problem might not be able to do their orginal job, but is perfectly capable of doing a different type of work.

Once they are on IB its very hard to kick them off and they lose confidence in themselves.

ReallyTired - I'm very well aware of all the other benefits. That was my point in my first post on this thread - that actually they'll probably be better off than if they were being paid wages.

But that doesn't change the fundamental fact that if they're doing a job they should be paid wages. And that means the minimum wage, surely? People earning the minimum wage still get all those benefits you mention and they are just that - benefits. Nothing to do with a salary - nothing at all.

Twinklemegan,
I think that paying them the minimum wage would be a good idea. It would give more dignity.It probably would not cost the tax payer much more. It would be more complicated sorting out tax credits though.

If they fail to turn up or muck about then like a real employer they would not get paid.

Absolutely - I couldn't agree more. It would get them used to the discipline of work.

I think people should get, say, 2 years to find a job that suits them. If they fail to do so in that time (and that is actually possible in some areas, even when people are trying hard) then the Government should step in and provide a job. This may not be of their choosing, but it would be either that or lose benefit.

If it was presented in that way, and it was clear that it was a job that was being provided - for proper wages - then I for one would have no problem with the policy whatsoever.