Mothers must lead the fight against knives

[BellaLasagne]

www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/05/27/do2704.xml

Is there anything we can do?

I have said time and time again on here that the problem with society is children - most of the ones that offend - have no sense of self worth and so reflect this onto the people they attack not realising that these people have loving families and friends - they just don't get it!

And to me it is the parents responsibility - yes the police do have a hand in it but it our responsibility to bring our children up to be law abidding members of society - they law is there as a last resort!

It'sworth considering that some of the reasons why some people have no respect for 'authority' is that the people in power do not merit that respect. Politicians lie to people, employers mistreat them, police corruption occurs.A government that is obsessed with retaining power and giving wads of money to favoured business cronies while treating the general public as vicious morons who need to be spied on, pushed around, locked up and encouraged to hate and fear their neighbours, is not going to make for a peaceful happy world.

Agree with madamez partic. last half of post. Think alcohol much to blame - why is it that so many people seem to need to get out of skull so utterly so frequently. DH and I were saying this at weekend and wondering why none of the powers that be/media etc ask why this is going on but instead rush in with solutions. So many people oppressed by control freak govt.. reduced to slavery to pay for Orwellian New Labour projects was conclusion we came to. Everyone seemed much happier in the 70s despite potential nuclear armaggedon, acrylic jumpers and Boney M - you could at least do what you wanted and keep some of your money (if you had any to start with) .

It's also the current government that has favoured the kind of chain pubs and clubs that go in for 'vertical drinking' ie there's nothing to do but get off your head on alcopops, cheap shot promotions etc and loud music: all the quirky little free houses get squeezed out.

God those telegraph readers are such a bunch of alarming blimps, aren't they?

You can really see how fascism would be possible in Britain when you read their website.

I read the Telegraph - what's an alarming blimp?

Madamez - I do so agree about the way we drink. Old fashioned pubs, while not everyone's taste, at least regulated how much the customers drank and the customers tended to be responsible for themselves and their friends, as well as 'policing' the youngsters.

We've been asked to go on Sky news tomorrow to talk about this issue so if anyone else has any more thoughts do post them here - in particular how do you go about trying to discourage a teenager from carrying a knife and how prevalent you feel the problem is?

I heard a chap on radio yesterday saying that the teenagers are carrying knives to protect themselves, but in fact if they do carry a knife they were much more likely to be stabbed themselves, than if they didn't carry one. percentages were quoted, but I can't remember - sorry.
I think the key is to get them off the streets, and find them something to do - boredom counts for a lot. Easier said than done I know.
Perhaps we should be working on the younger kids first, to stop/prevent them being dragged into the same way of thinking and way of life as they older kids. Stop it being the usual way of life.

Education. Our rubbish education system needs to be less about testing and exams and more about broadening horizons.

There would need to be a radical paradigm shift in this society in order to discourage young people from carrying knives.

The education system, the criminal justice system, the housing system, the family system.

And no one is interested in that.

So to be quite cynically frank, I don't see this problem abating any time soon.

I agree with madamez: it's to do with teaching pride in yourself and your society. The youth of today - in fact, the scoiety of today - is not shown any respect with the whole culture of mistrust, assumption of guilt, examples of blatant corruption and/or profiteering (MPs' expenses anyone), "I'm alright Jack" (eg pulling up the brdge to access to tertiary education, vis Cherie Blair's admition that she wouldn't have got where she was without free uni, but "it's sad but has to be done")

It's not an excuse for knife carrying - but it does beg the question: if no-one respect their lives, why should they respect anyone elses?

Quite, prettybird. And let's not forget the ASBO culture - teenagers are treated as the enemy long before they actually get anywhere near doing anything wrong. Three adults having a natter on a street corner - that's nice. Three teenagers - someone will complain about anti-social behaviour.

i am just wondering when it stopped being illegal to serve an already inebriated person alcohol?

i think madamez and expat have made some very good points on this thread.

in fact,i think they should run the country,that would sort the problem out

I grew up around these deprived kids who carried knives and I tell you, they rarely consumed alcohol but everyday all day they were smoking very strong skunk! They also bought into the whole hip hop gang culture shit. most of them were brought up without fathers or a male role model.

I have two boys - two currently beautiful, polite, innocent, law-abiding boys who pick up their litter and cry if they see an animal being mistreated.

What sort of jump is it, to two young men who drink til they seep piss and vitriol from every pore in their body and could contemplate sticking a blade into another human beings body. Or just start kicking another person til the life has gone?

It scares me shitless to think of them in a world where kids kill other kids with knives...

I don't know what the answer is.

It scares me too. Would you agree with my earlier comment about steering our children away from the drinking culture or am I being alarmist.

You know, I really doubt that the kids who do this are brought up by fruit-shoot-hating, no-smacking, is-the-best-school-agonizing mumsnet-type parents. I doubt they were taught to pick up litter or empathise with mistreated animals.

I agree with you nametaken about generating an alternative culture. if there is nowhere where young people are welcomed: eg cafes where coffees (or other drinks) are an affordable price (ie not Starbucks! ), then they will find alternative ways of occupying themsleves.

Ds (age 7.8) is already learning to taste wine: note, I say "taste" and not "drink". if he can learn that the pleasure is to do with the taste buds and not with the potential inebriation, then maybe (just maybe) he won't get seduced by the binge dirnking culture.

I don't know what to do about the knife culture - it is so far out of my ken, I can't understand the motivation, let alone suggest a solution.

I do agree wih previous posters that to concentrate on mums as a way of addressing it ignores the point that perhps the problem is to do with the lack of reponsible male role models - so why not address the men that were, after all, involved in the conception of these kids!

I have two sons, now in their early 20's, who grew up without a male role model, and it's been damn hard. I watched them struggle throughout their teens and had to deal with behaviour I never anticipated and was ill equipped to deal with.

I made a very stupid mistake in my early 20's and married a man who was just appalling at fatherhood and became a violent alcoholic within a year of the birth of our first child. I eventually found the wit and strength to leave when my kids were 6 and 7.

With no close family, where do you find a male role model? It's not as if you can buy one. Yes, I had/have male friends but the one who actually had any understanding of the kind of consistent male presence boys need in their lives died tragically and prematurely. Others were happy enough to participate up to a point - as long as it was fun - but when the going got tough... well, it seems like it takes a real man to stand up and be a real man.

Mothers continue to be an easy target, and I agree that mothers have a role, but I also think there's some kind of collective responsibility for childrearing that we (as a society) tend to shirk. If it's not our child, it's not our problem, or is it?

It's easy enough to expect the government to deal with it, through various agencies and education, but I reckon we have the government we deserve, and that the real issues are much more deeply seated.

Kids are kids, and far too many of our kids are vulnerable and exposed and ill-prepared for adulthood - gangs offer the teenage boy something valuable beyond words - a sense of belonging and community and loyalty that is lacking elsewhere.

There's an african saying, if you do not initiate the young men, they will burn the village down, just for the warmth.

Good point Dillytant about our collective responsibility.

Contrary to what Maggie said 20 odd year ago - there is such a thing as society, and unless we believe that and contribute actively to it, then we will end up with the society that we deserve .

In a funny way, this thread also links into the thread which discusses the acceptability of of a 5 year old being out on his/her own. If we beleived in a society's reposnbility, then we wouldn't necessarily be so quick to blame the parent and accept our duty to contribute to all children's wellbeing (and that includes keeping an eye out on attended children, not driving too fast down country lanes and generally being considerate).

Yes, I do realise that I lve in la la land!

Good points have been made about the Asbo culture (any vindictive fucker can make an entirely spurious complaint about anyone now: the thing about asbos is that there is little or no burden of proof with them): the current school system with the endless testing doesn;t help, nor does the fact that if teenagers get their A levels they get a barrage of crap about A levels being too easy.
If you treat people as though they are stupid, violent, unwanted scum they will start to prove you right. Putting already-unhappy people under extra pressure (constant surveillance, constant criticism) will make them more paranoid, more irritable, less rational. ANd there is probably a lot to be said about the reason so many young males (boys, really) make such a big deal about getting 'respect' through violence and intimidation: if no one has every treated them with any respect, why should they, and how should they, learn to respect others?

None of the various people who attacked my sons at knifepoint were drunk. (several times over the last 3 years)

None of the people who mugged my sons' friends on public transport in broad daylight were drunk.

What they were, was totally unconcerned that there would be any repercussions, that the police would even have the time or the inclination to look for them, or that there would be any punishment or consequences.

They were confident that by threatening their victims, and the victims' families (having stolen wallets, driver's licences, keys etc)they would ensure that the victims would be afraid to give witness statements or go to court. Because the courts let them off anyway.

They are so confident about this that they post videos of themselves and their gangs on U tube, rapping and boasting about their crimes.

They know they can get away with anything.

I think whoever said that we should get madamez and expatinscotland to sort the problem out had a point : a combination of an understadning of the root causes combiend with a zero tolerance attitude to infractions.

The police should come down hard on "drunkk and disorderly" or "carrying a weapon with intent" or whatevr.

I don't think there are any easy answers to something that is a complex issue with many facets - biological, psychological, social, cultural. I'm with expat on the need for a paradigm shift here, and equally pessimistic about our chances of being anywhere near such a thing.

I've seen the support and empathy available to MNer's who've posted about their kids being bullied, and I'm not knocking that, but I'm also aware that a couple of MNer's who were raising the profile of a website to support runaways and their families were asked to stop 'bumping' a thread because some found it distressing - it's a curious approach to inclusivity.

My kids were not knife-wielding but one was certainly free with his fists for a while - fucked-up and angry. My fault in part, I have to admit, but by no means exclusively so, and it's a lonely place to be for any mother.

I'm not sure how collective responsibilty can be engendered in current British society when people take offence if anyone so much as rebukes someone else's child. Society also gives out mixed messages to men and boys, on the one hand berating them for shirking their roles as fathers but otoh, saying that the need for a child to have a father does not need to be taken into account when considering offering IVF treatment.

I also think that today's lifestyle has something to do with this pent-up aggression we see. Even when my boys were small, which wasn't so long ago, (they're 33 and 28yo) they led a much more physical life than children/teens nowadays. They played in the woods, rode bikes, played football, walked to & from school, sometimes inc coming home for lunch as well, walked to friends' houses, climbed on the roof(!!) scrambled up and down trees and over walls and generally ran off their energy. They were tired by the end of the day (oh, I forgot they fought each other - that's good for getting rid of energy, too!) and had no need of finding mischief.

What the answer to this is, I don't know. Compulsory 5 mile daily marches, maybe? I do know that at dd's current school the boys used to play football before school in the mornings. It was banned, because the boys were 'overexcited' afterwards. Guess what - within days, the boys were behaving so badly in class that lessons were being seriously disrupted. It was hardly rocket science to predict that outcome. All they needed to do was stop them playing football 10 mins before class. That would have allowed them to run off their energy and given them time to calm down afterwards.