Anyone else following the Sycamore Gap trial?

[HowManyMintCLubsIsTooMany]

I am baffled as to how these two men do not realise how ludicrous their defences sound despite the obvious evidence against them.

The judge must be exasperated!

Agreed!

We are - fancy a flutter on how long the jury will take in deliberations? I reckon about 40mins, which is about enough time for them to have a cuppa and a digestive and visit the loo 😜

Seriously though with the court system as it is there must be some effective deterrent to defendants opting to plead not guilty when there is such a preponderance of evidence against them

I agree what’s been said sounds ridiculous. But I also disagree with the tone of it all - I think there are many worse crimes that actually harm people, that aren’t given so much attention. I hope they don’t receive a custodial sentence because in my view it’s not an appropriate response to vandalism like this. They need to be given community service planting trees and making landscapes beautiful.

How do you follow the trial?

The BBC has had a live reporting stream during the day

They have a right to plead not guilty. They cannot be leaned on to plead guilty. They should have done but that’s not the issue. We have our system of Justice for a reason!

I disagree. They’re a pair of smug muppets and I think only a prison sentence would wipe the smile off their faces.

They're taking the mick pleading not guilty, it’s a huge waste of resources and precious court time. They think it’s a game and I think are enjoying the attention and fame.

Maybe they are enjoying the attention and fame, maybe they are smug. That’s not what prison is for. Prison is there to keep the public safe and should be about rehabilitation of offenders.

The fact there is a live stream like there would be in a high profile rape or murder trial, imo is ridiculous.

The deterrence is usually that an early guilty plea can be taken into account on sentencing I thought?

There should be an equal and opposite effect - an added sentence for NOT pleading (and therefore wasting resources) when the evidence is so overwhelming

They've devastated a lot of people. That tree was amazing and iconic for the north east and it was also a familiar friend on a walk. Unless you've seen it you won't know. Their actions have affected an awful lot of people in the area and there is also world wide interest (hence the livestream).
They need to be punished properly.

There is an incentive to plead guilty, the sentence is reduced by one third if a defendant pleads guilty at the earliest opportunity. A fine would be reduced by one third. For a community penalty including unpaid work the work hours would be reduced by one third, For a custodial sentence the length would be reduced by one third.
If a defendant pleads guilty at a later stage (eg on first day of trial) the sentence would still be reduced but not as much.

I’ve not been following but what’s their defence? Surely they can’t have one?

Someone else drove the car to the spot (GPS and ANPR evidence) filmed the felling on the phone that happened to be in the car at the time (mobile signal evidence) drove the car back to the property where a photo was taken of a piece of the tree in the boot (metadata evidence) and then entirely coincidentally proceeded to send messages on the same phone referring to the job “we did” (didn’t actually mean that though) and sharing Facebook posts about it .

But apart from that……

I think a custodial sentence is warranted here, they planned the destruction of this tree for five minutes of fame . All those years of growing , the loss for nature and people . I hope the judge makes an example of them , they do seem pretty thick though.

I was horrified by what these men did, I love trees and have my favourites in the woods behind my house and I hope they get the maximum punishment possible
However, in legal terms I am not sure that they can be punished any more than for cutting down a tree that wasn't as iconic.
Hopefully the court of popular opinion will punish them in terms of them losing their business etc.

Graham says that he leaves his vehicle unlocked overnight with the keys in the vehicle so anyone could use it. He also claims that his mobile phone was in the vehicle so anyone who could unlock it could use it. He says that Carruthers was fascinated with the tree and cut it down. He says that he wasn't involved but Carruthers asked him to take the blame.

Carruthers says it wasn't him, denies Graham's version of events, says he had no interest in the tree and says he doesn't know who did it or why he was sent the video of it being cut down.

Both deny having experience in felling large trees.

The prosecution case seems compelling and the cases put by the defendants seem unlikely. However, the police have not found the chainsaw used, nor have they found the wedge that was cut out of the tree. If they had found these things in the possession of one of the defendants, that would have pretty much wrapped the whole thing up.

Yes! So bizarre. I agree prison would be ridiculous for this but if found guilty they should get a huge fine imo.

They are idiots of the first order. Whatever the punishment is, I hope it's the maximum.
Pathetic pair

That tree meant so much to so many people. Couples have been proposed to under it, ashes of loved ones have been scattered in the area, and far more

They can't afford to plead guilty because they would have to say WHY they did it.

The sentence is based in part on the level of harm. Assuming they are convicted, the judge will look at the value of the damage, the level of distress caused, and the economic and social impacts. So yes, they can get a higher sentence than for cutting down a random tree elsewhere.

Assuming the judge assesses this as high culpability and high harm, the starting point for sentencing is an 18 month custodial sentence, with the range being 6 months to 4 years. As I understand it, they are each charged with two offences (damage to the tree and damage to Hadrian's Wall), so they could, in theory, receive double this sentence, although I doubt the court would go that high.

One of them was tracked going to a shopping centre which is close to the tree (about 3 miles) which was a 3 hour round trip the afternoon before. And with his wife and newborn
Obviously sussing it all out.
He said he fancied going for something to eat. But never did have anything to eat and went home again

Funny that

Well surprise surprise - GUILTY

Good.

What shopping centre is 3 miles from the tree out of interest? It's on Hadrians Wall which is in a fairly remote part of Northumberland. Hexham is about 14 miles?

These two men are so thick, wilfully ignorant and utterly without shame that we'd all be better off without them. I would have like to see them chucked into a deep hole under a large tree, but I understand that for some reason penalties like this are not currently favoured by the justice system. I hope they get a custodial sentence, but unfortunately they will eventually be released and as their names will now be mud their businesses will no longer be viable, so we'll end up supporting them through the benefits system.