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Family life is in 'meltdown': Judge launches devastating attack on our fractured society

101 replies

ScienceTeacher · 05/04/2008 06:55

click

OP posts:
ImflightbutIcantlogintoday · 05/04/2008 14:29

Bloody hell, just seen bits of the rest of the thread and think I will walk away now before I get involved!!!!

Science teacher, I am probably not with you on much of this. Just for the record...

ScienceTeacher · 05/04/2008 14:29

I'd rather friends hung around our house rather than vice versa - then I know what they are getting up to.

OP posts:
ScienceTeacher · 05/04/2008 14:30

I really don't care if people agree with me or not, ftr.

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 05/04/2008 14:32

What's wrong with people being personally responsible for the consequences of sex, though?

No matter what their age?

I think people here mollycoddle too much with one hand, then stroke their chin with the other, wondering how it all got so f*cked up.

ImflightbutIcantlogintoday · 05/04/2008 14:34

No well I'll just shut up then.

motherinferior · 05/04/2008 14:44

Can you stop teenagers having sex?

And if so, what's wrong with the youth of today, eh?

MadameCh0let · 05/04/2008 14:55

It is possible I hope to instill enough confidence in to your daughters to make sure that they're only having sex IF they really want to, and with the right person.

I think a lot of girls are still pressured in to it. By other girls and by the boys they're maybe sort of going out with.

I would like to tell my children when they're a bit older that although magazines and Tv and films go on and on and on and on about sex, that actually, it is only to SELL products and that sex too early with the wrong person when you just thought you might be missing something isn't an 'experiment' worth carrying out.

That may work, it may not. But that's going to be my approach.

cheekychickenknickers · 05/04/2008 15:32

I don't think you can stop teenagers having sex but you can stop them getting pregnant and STD's.
there have been a few threads on various sites I have seen where the girl has come for advice and support - because she knows ahead of time the advice she will get from her mother about her unplanned pregnancy. twice the girls wanted impartial advice because they knew that their mum would be overjoyed that she was going to be a nanna.. (the girl that time as 14)

Educating youngsters about the realities my not be everyones good idea but I think it is important.

Judy1234 · 05/04/2008 16:18

Lots of girls enjoy sex. That's a separate issue and it's a bit sexist to suggest they all are pushed into it. The judge if he's involve with family courts will have heard lots of hearings where couples have divorced from all sections of society. Single mothers are an easy and very unfair group to target. You would be better directing energy at all those fathers who choose to have nothing much to do with their children including my ex husband. Some fathers (and mothers) have little to do with them in marriage too.

But ST is right about people having an inflated view of their children's importance and the view their child is always right and the school always wrong.

fircone · 05/04/2008 16:51

I think Heated is right: boys need fathers. There are many boys who have no decent adult male role model in their lives, not even a teacher. I saw this is one explanation for why many are attracted to gangs and their hierarchies.

Furthermore, it is inescapable that girls don't need to have babies. But people generally do what their peers do. If all your mates have a baby and live a life associated with that, why would you want to flog yourself working in Primark all day for a pittance, with no expectation of earning enough to afford half the place that your single mother friend gets given for nothing?

And also what has changed today is that the WOMEN are in possession of the accommodation. In the past, a woman had to stay with a husband because she had no means of support if she were to leave. Now the woman's name is on the rent book, and it is men who lamely drift from one woman to the next, with nothing to their name.

I feel sorry for a certain strata of boys. They have great poverty of expectation.

Monkeybird · 05/04/2008 17:19

oh puhleese...

The social commentary on this thread is knocking me out with its incisive analysis and intelligence.

But I still can't be arsed arguing with you all.

MadameCh0let · 05/04/2008 18:50

I agree with ST on that point too. Children's parents aren't teaching them to respect their teachers any more. I don't know why not.

Xenia, we've had this discussion before, but it is only common sense to persuade your daughter to wait a little bit longer, if they can, rather than having sex the very first time the opportunity presents itself. Women enjoy sex yes, but I think it would be a leap to conclude that 14 yr old girls enjoy sex. A very small percentage might.

If my daughter listens to me well and good, and if she jumps into bed with a boy in her class when she's 14, well, I probably won't even know about it. She'll be the one who's left wondering, hmmm, was that it then? I'd say there'd be about a 10% chance of a 14 yr old girl who's just had sex for the first time thinking, God, I'm so glad I did that!!

I'm really curious and not trying to diss your parenting style. Different strokes etc, but what do you say to your children? Go ahead and have sex if you want to! The Victorians were fcuking in hedges when they were your age! Get on with it, you're 13 now! Those Victorians were probably dead at 35 though.

Greyriverside · 05/04/2008 18:51

I have known people who have child after child casually with no thought of how they will look after them. Who make no effort to bring them up at all, just feed them and hope it will work out. I'm old enough that I have seen that next generation begin to do the same thing. What other example do they have to live by? There is no doubt that they exist. Many are not single parent families exactly, Some are unmarried. (and in fact there are no single parents unless a sperm donor was used - the father is just not around to help)

The ones I have known were mostly on benefits, but that's partly because of my own social class. An unmarried woman with money for a nanny and boarding school would not be seen the same way anyway.

They mostly (in my experience) live on estates surrounded by others with no hope for the future. They may not know anyone who has a job, let alone work themselves.

However it came about we need to do something about it.

It's been suggested to me that one way forward is to break the cycle by breaking up estates. Mixing poorer/unemployed people in with those who are better off instead of hiding them away. Imagine if you put each such family in a house on a street where most people clean their cars, weed their gardens and go to work.

I can imagine people cringing already and yes some might cause some problems, but humans respond to peer pressure. We have a need to fit in with others. It's a bit simplistic to say that they will see others cleaning their windows and start doing theirs, but there is some truth in it. On a council estate it feels like there is no point in trying and you're surrounded by others who feel the same way.

Given a fresh start and surrounded by people who have found ways to improve their lives might just do the trick.

Monkeybird · 05/04/2008 19:05

Oh, I'm loving this thread just for the comedy value.

Rofling at 'child after child casually'. They told you that these people you know^, did they? That they didn't think about how they would look after them? You saw them 'not bringing them up, just feeding them', didja?

Or did you just make it all up cos it makes you feel better about your own life?

LBA · 05/04/2008 19:15

"On a council estate it feels like there is no point in trying and you're surrounded by others who feel the same way".

No no no no no.

I live in a council house, in a council street. The majority of us here have nice houses which we look after, nice gardens and clean windows . We look after our children. Where are these estates where you have to dodge a burning car and youths throwing bottles just to get in your front door. Do these places even exist? (although, they do on the telly so it must be real).

Come on, for goodness sake.

Single parents arent a different breed.

expatinscotland · 05/04/2008 19:18

I can tell you where some are in Edinburgh, LBA.

I lived on one. DH lived in several.

LBA · 05/04/2008 19:22

Well then I consider myself lucky to have never seen it.

Greyriverside · 05/04/2008 19:25

Monkeybird, I come from that world. Maybe you're living in a nicer pinker one.

Greyriverside · 05/04/2008 19:27

And LBA you are lucky - some are not. Perhaps you don't believe in starving people in the third world. "oh why don't they just order some food with their credit card like real people do"

LBA · 05/04/2008 19:31

Hell I was just thinking actually that if you came from a place like that then you are proof that not all is lost. I wasn't being sarky ive just never seen anywhere that bad.

ScienceTeacher · 05/04/2008 19:54

Ah, Martello Tower, Expat (although I have a feeling they are going to dynamite it - nothing more fitting).

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 05/04/2008 20:05

nah, martello was WAY better than those maisonettes in the crescent, ST, except when someone through a petrol bomb down the lift chute .

expatinscotland · 05/04/2008 20:05

i didn't come from a place like that, LBA.

and DH would have still been living there if he hadn't met me.

even he admits as much.

Heated · 05/04/2008 21:01

My dh teaches in a school served by 2 large estates. There are some areas of it where having a clean step is very important but he regularly attends case conferences with Social Services so sees a lot of the other side too . Two years ago one of his students aged 14 murdered another boy. 4 of his students last year pg were before they started/took their GCSEs. He has 2 absent pending sentencing. One, now in care, was usefully small enough to burgle with his sf. There are a small but persistent group of drug-takers (maybe supplying), one of their step-fathers supplies the estate. And that doesn't cover the ones who threaten violence to other pupils or staff.

But he also teaches good kids who aren't any trouble, who work hard and have ambition, who also live on the same estates.

Parenting the key factor?

Judy1234 · 05/04/2008 21:33

But what heated described is not too different from my mother's teaching experiences in a very rough bit of Newcastle in the 1950s. Doesn't mean we shouldn't; try to change those types of families of course.

(On the side issue - "I'm really curious and not trying to diss your parenting style. Different strokes etc, but what do you say to your children? Go ahead and have sex if you want to! The Victorians were fcuking in hedges when they were your age! Get on with it, you're 13 now! Those Victorians were probably dead at 35 though."

It never became an issue. As far as I know my older 3 never had a boyfriend or girl friend until they went to university for some reason. My second daughter didn't even start her periods until age 14. I think children just mature at different ages. They went to single sex very academic schools although I am sure some girls there and boys at teh boys school had underage sex just not my children. The girls were devoted to horses and sport so were outdoors a lot although I wouldn't know what they were up to at the stables of course. If I had been presented with a a 14 or 15 year old with a serious boyfriend or girl friend who wanted to sleep over here - what would I have done? It's hard to say as that was never presented to me. I suspect as they know it's illegal they wouldn't have asked me or done it here.)

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