"MMR-Autism link is dismissed - again"

[CoteDAzur]

That is the title of the article anyway.

If there are any doctors among us, could they explain why the study was looking for a "raised concentration of measles antibodies"? What was that supposed to show?

And how come none of the autistic children in the test group had any 'bowel symptoms'?

I wondered about MMR when I had to get DS2 jabbed 7 years ago. I asked my bro, who is now a prof in microbiology. Not because it is his area, but because he can analyse the research and tell me if it has been reviewed and is valid.

He said go ahead, and that was good enough for me.

however - I think if we had a family history of autistic spectrum stuff,l I might think twice?

Otherwise the risk of the disease far outweighs the risk of the vaccine (and remember that every single vaccine carries a risk)

I agree nooka that they wouldn't have got ethics approval - which is why I said they wouldn't have scoped the guts.

So far in the GMC case Wakefield has 'passed' the ethics issues.

Most professionals can't recognise autism in an 18 month old child when its presented in front of them. I do know a paediatrician locally who having cared for a child in HDU following MMR has told his mother that his severe autism was almost certainly triggered by MMR. And I know of other paeds who had, off the record said the same sort of things, so it's not true to say that professionals just think that regression hasn't been noticed. They have btw been happy to agree that ds1 regressed and that I noticed it (I wasn't trying to link it to MMR).

Desi- the tests have not been done. The tests have shown that MMR is safe for the vast majority of children. The tests have shown that MMR is not responsible for the rise in autism. I don't disagree with that. I also agree that there are many potential triggers. The tests have not examined whether a small sub-group have had their autism triggered by the MMR. I agree incidentally with the findings of the American Insititute of Medicine who in 2001 (so a bit out of date but nothing has changed) said that it was unlikely that MMR is causing autism at a population level, but it might contribute in a small number of children.

Asperger's is different to autism and it's plain that we do not have one in a hundred autistic adult men in our midst.

But I have to bow out as I don't know enough about the subject.

Tabitha, unless there is a history of autism in your family, I really wouldn't worry. It is preferable that she is fully vaccinated.

I am merely poiting out that the diagnosis has become more availble but the conditions may have already existed. I did not mean that aspergers equals autism, but gave that as an example of someone who went undiagnosed for 50 years (and I have talked with him at length, the symptoms / behavior were always there)

That sounds sensible, Yurt.

So what would your advice be to parents, perhaps with a family predisposition, who are worried about the triple jab?

Yes that's what they all tell us. Night x

Desi - my son attends an SLD/PMLD school. The children in there would never have been mainstreamed. And once children have been through the school the parents stay. A parent now in her 60's visited and asked where all the autistic children were coming from as they just weren't there when her son was at school. Then there were a few in entire school- now there are whole classes.

We had a visit from the director of an adult care home for people with severe autism. He works for a very large company. He said the number of homes like his will be increasing in number because there is now a much bigger demand. He said that the system cannot meet the needs of all the people now moving into adulthood and there is need for more provision and that it will be built over the next few years.

Noe of these are odd bods who no-one noticed. These are children/adults who can't talk who remain in nappies who have extremely challenging behaviours. It is incredibly difficult to get accurate figures because the information isn't kept but if you ask people dealing with it at ground level they say it is increasing.

ecently went through all this again with dp. the ds's were way behind on vaccinations due to not resolving it...

deciding factor was when dp looked into it and found that all this hoo-haa is UK specific.

other countries, lots of them, have the MMR, but none of them are worried about this like we are. which makes me pretty sure its hysteria based on not a lot of fact.

Thanks all - v useful

Shizaru- there are 2 types of gut problems that seem to be commonly found in autism. One type is 'leaky gut' (this is the type my son has) where the gut lets in more than it should (to put it simply). Lots of theories about what may predispose to this- but it seems that if you have it you may be more a risk of developing autism. Interestingly it also seems to be involved in some cases of type 1 diabetes and various other autoimmune conditions.

The MMR type gut seems to be a bit different. In that case the gut becomes ulcerated - so it effectively develops very big holes and is accompanied by quite extreme gut symptoms (leaky gut often isn't). The question is what triggers these ulcers etc- and that's where the role of MMR (or not) comes in.

Snappy- that's at a political level. Partly due to the press conference surrounding the Lancet paper which kicked the whole issue off. . If you read autism forums you find it's just as big an issue wherever you are. It's not relevant to most people outside that community as the vast majority of children have MMR without issue.

You mean autism that is triggered by MMR type gut?

Thanks for that post, yurt. It is difficult to know the truth of things when your life isn't immediately touched by them.

I have felt for a long time that people are not as well as they should be. I look at allergies, colds, obesity, complex behavioural/brain development difficulties, and I wonder what is going on in this world of ours.

Our quite recent ancestors died of (today) preventable illness: childbirth, typhus, cholera, malnutrition .. and of course, there were many, many people who today would have been diagnosed as autistic.

The triple jab is certainly one area of exploration. But I cannot help thinking that there are many more reasons besides.

Any how, thanks for the conversation and your insights. I'm away to my bed now, as I've just noticed the spectral image of my sleep-walking son going into my bedroom!

Oh, and I've just read your leaky gut post, which has given me even more pause for thought.

Des, childbirth isnt an illness

The leaky gut stuff is really interesting. There's an excellent paper I can send you on leaky gut and autoimmune conditions (not autism- doesn't mention it) published in a journal with a high impact factor. It was basically the model we'd come up for what had happened in our family (also rife with type 1 diabetes). Of course one route to leaky gut might be dodgy gut bacteria which should interest plenty of mumsnetters who are interested in the benefits of breastfeeding. I'm sure leaky gut is far more important in terms of what's happening generally health wise than anything to do with MMR.

We know ds3 has a leaky gut. Which is why as far as possible, we've just avoided all potential triggers in the early years. Gluten was possibly the biggest no-no for us (and again there's a model whereby type 1 diabetes develops via gluten passing through a leaky gut- just like autism!) We're fairly confident now he's 3 that he's developing normally, so he's started having gluten in the last month. I';m not convinced it's good for him, but I also don't want him to stay off gluten unecessarily.

But I must go to bed too.

Shizaru- who knows- one model is that in children who regress following the MMR the gut inflammation been triggered by the MMR and the resulting dodgy gut results something passing through in vast quantities which causes autism. It's only a model though and that's a simplification of the model anyway.

It's interesting. There are links to issues with gluten, diabetes and other such things with tryptophan and serotonin. There is still so much we dont know, isnt there?

Desi - you said "The triple jab is certainly one area of exploration. But I cannot help thinking that there are many more reasons besides."

Agree completely. One paper I read on leaky gut and type 1 diabetes (which was weird as it was really like reading an autism paper- I wanted to introduce the researchers to each other ) picked up this point an actually said that there were so many potential triggers once you had a leaky gut it was pointless looking for them. Who really cared whether it was gluten or milk proteins etc etc that was triggering the diabetes- but instead resources should be put into looking at ways of treating the gut. Personally I think that was quite sensible (although of course I should mention that no causal link has yet been established between type 1 diabetes and a leaky gut).

yes - and its really complicated Shizaru. When you start looking at autistic kids often so many of their results come back outside the normal range.
Not helped in a way by the term 'autism' when in fact under that umbrella there are individuals who are physiologically totally different from each other. IN reality they probably have many different types of conditions that just ends up looking the same.

But gut problems are pretty prevalent, yes?

What within autism? Leaky gut seems to be - but there are no figures to refer to and I personally know quite a few autistic kids without any gut problems at all. There are definitely many routes to autism.

Oh Desi- just saw your question on advice to a family concerned. I don't tell people what they should or shouldn't do. The stakes are too high either way, and what I would do in their shoes would depend on their family history (which I would have no way of knowing).

I would advise them to buy Richard Halvorsen's book (he's an NHS GP) 'the truth about vaccinations'. It's cheap, new (published last year) detailed and referenced so it can be picked apart relatively easily (there are a few off the record comments, but most are referenced). It's not anti-vaccination- although he has concerns about the vaccination programme he is still an NHS GP. He gives his own set of recommendations at the end. And he spends many chapters on the MMR. It should be enough for anyone to make up their own mind for their own situation.

You should read the study before you call the authors idiots, yes. and you did say the "chances are" that none of the 7% you mentioned would be present in the group of 98, not that it's possible none are (yes, it is possible, but it's much more likely that some of those children were indeed present).

It's true that 98 children is a small sample, but this wasn't an epedemiological study. there have been lots of those of course, and none have found a link between MMR and autism.

But none of the children had gut problems. That is the study group.
I apologise for 'idiots' but I don't actually understand the point of this study. What is it actually showing. It has nothing to do with autism and MMR as it hasn't looked at children with enterocolitis.

I tried to find the study last night but couldn't find in in the Feb journal. I am interested in who the authors are. If one is Elizabeth Miller I will laugh my leg off. (Have no idea if it is, probably not).