Do nurses want to leave the Agenda for Change pay scale?

[Santoo]

Nurses are going on strike for a 19% payrise. But as things stand, the only way they can get it is if every NHS worker on the AfC pay scale gets the same. It’s unimaginable. So are nurses saying they feel they should be on a separate pay scale?

I was wondering this.
I’m a midwife and our industrial action ballot hasn't closed yet.
I wondered what would happen if nurses were successful with their strike, would it mean a change for all nhs workers using AFC?

I have been looking everywhere for some discussion of this - and the implications for AfC - in the news, but I haven’t been able to find anything! Would love to be pointed in the right direction.

All the NHS deserves a pay raise,I did also hear this that nurses may have separate salaries,If they do all AHPs should be included too

I think the issue is that AFC has not been uprated in accordance with inflation.

In that case it is up to the government to either rectify this or scrap the payscale. Either way it is not within the remit of the nurses who perform their duties for pay and conditions which are commensurate with neither their education, skills nor vocation to advocate for revision to what is a governmental directive.

Happy to be corrected as I have not been an NHS nurse since 2011, having left to put my education to use elsewhere.

AfC is a standardised payscale where jobs of equal value are paid the same, therefore if nurses get a payrise, then anyone of equivalent banding should too. I was involved in the job evaluations for AfC and it was a total PITA but it was as close to equivalence as was humanly possible at the time.

I think this is part of the problem with the NHS pay structure. We shouldn't have clinical and non Clinical staff on the same pay structure for a start. And then within the clinical group the pay structure is so restrictive. Experience and specialist skills are not rewarded fairly anymore and so those who can, leave the NHS to be paid closer to what their skills are worth elsewhere.

I think unison and unite, amongst others, have balloted NHS staff too. If these unions strike there will be a wide variety of clinical (including nurses) and non-clinical staff involved that are all on the AfC pay scale. I would also think if nurses get moved off of AfC and others didn't get a payrise then a mass walkout of non-clinical staff would occur. Even if we didn't get a payrise at least they may appreciate us a little bit more when services grind to a halt!!

It’s a pile of rubbish where you have nurses on the same pay as a PA. It royally shafted nurses (who are the lowest paid graduate professionals) purely because of their numbers.

You are totally correct. The only way to make any money as a nurse in the NHS is not to actually nurse anyone.

This is all too little too late really isn't it?
The most prudent time was when they moved to make the profession graduate entry because let's face it; with anywhere from BCC to ABB A levels and a 2:1 degree in any other profession you are categorically not looking at a starting salary of approx 25K.

The government have dined out on the premise of 'vocation' for far too bloody long and I support the girls and guys I trained with to strike at any time they so choose.

As a patient always remember that the ultimate responsibility for your care lies not with the nurse, but the government. So rightly demand that the government adequately fund their human resources which facilitate your care appropriately, rather than lazily seek to vilify those tasked with providing that same resource.

Thanks for raising OP! This question only occurred to me this morning and left me wondering why it isn’t a significant discussion point in relation to the nurses’ strike. Like you, I don’t see how it can work without raising AfC pay scales across the board or scrapping them altogether.
FWIW (I’m Band 7 AHP who thinks I’m fairly paid for what I do), I feel the whole system should be overhauled to better reflect individual employees’ job roles, experience, skills and working environment. AfC doesn’t make any adjustments for things like the necessity to work in-person/on-site vs the ability to work from home and additional qualifications/training can’t be readily rewarded - you just have to wait 2/3 years until you can hop up onto the next increment

If you’re saying nurses are “the lowest paid graduate professionals” on Agenda for Change then so too are occupational therapists, physiotherapists, speech and language therapists and so on, as they all get paid on exactly the same starting point and scale. Which has led to my OP really!

I think it depends where you work. In my large London Trust all of those professions are on B6-8, majority 7. We have zero employed on B5. Whereas for nurses the majority are kept on B5.

Thats interesting in N.I AHPs can not apply for a band 6 post without 2 years post graduate experience at band 5,in a specific area so could mean 5 years for example at band 5 to get it

with anywhere from BCC to ABB A levels and a 2:1 degree in any other profession you are categorically not looking at a starting salary of approx £25k

well that’s not true is it. To start with grades BCC to ABB aren’t particularly high, an 2:1 degree is fairly average nowadays and lots of graduate jobs start on £25k or less even. I agree nurses need a pay rise (along with other NHS staff) but let’s not stretch the truth.

I'm a PA for the NHS. I am a Band 7!

Although it's a tricky one because if they tried paying me the same as a graduate nurse, I'd walk. I'm worth far more in the private sector. So you have that issue too

I hate the way afc works. I work in the SE and we have a much high cost of living than some other places. When I worked in London the extra bit went nowhere near covering the extra costs.

I work in an area that is highly specialised and difficult to recruit but they can't pay a little bit more to entice new staff because of afc so just pay agency lots of money instead.

Because of politics my line manager is a band 6 and puts up with so much stress and shit and gets paid no more than any of the other band 6s in our speciality with very little responsibility. All because of afc. She's tried to quit so many times.

Many NHS non-clinical staff are relatively high banded compared to nurses as management know they can easily find higher paid similar work elsewhere especially in larger towns and cities. There are few jobs for nurses, OTs, Salts and pathology staff outside the NHS so can be given lower banding and still be fully staffed.
I have my ballot paper at home - I want to vote yes but I don't want my patients to come to harm.