Alan Bennett: Ban Public Schools

[DaDaDa]

Have we done this one yet?

In an ideal world, I agree with him.

lights blue touch paper, retires to safe distance with nice cup of tea and digestive biscuit

I don't think it's quite that, though, Anna - the tribe thing would include like-minded and similarly experienced people, but the old-girls network is more artificial, in the sense that it excludes those people who may be well suited to that "tribe" but who don't have the artificially-created credentials.

The old-girls network, if taken to its extreme, goes on to dominate and define other power networks, and exclude people who would be well-suited to work within them. This would not, I think, dilute the network, though it would, by definition, bring innovation and some change. And some members of any network are likely to want to resist change for a variety of reasons.

(Digging a bit into very rusty memories of social network theory - apologies if it's not as coherent as it should be!)

I don't think you can create "artificial" networks/tribes. People gravitate to like-minded people, and they may be like-minded because of shared experiences, like school or university, or because of other traits (good at chess, or running). They aren't artificial - they are very real. And not everyone who "was there" will be an active member of a network in later life. People self-select in and out of networks and are selected in and out by the networks themselves.

You can if you charge an entry fee, Anna!

The artificiality I'm talking about is where a child is sent to a school by its parents (so no self-selection at that stage) and then is given an interview/job simply because of having been to the same school, but not through any direct personal connection.

Yes, tribes and, to use a perjorative term, cronyism/nepotism will always exist. Sometimes the opportunities it creates will have a positive impact, sometimes they won't but either way, it doesn't work towards the idea of a meritocracy, which I think would be the ideal.

All the public schools are now funded by Russian and Chinese money

"is it your belief that those who pay for education are the ones who "value it most"?

I wondered if anyone would pick me up on that, and of course I was being deliberately provocative.

But in a sense I do think it is true because those who pay for education through private schools are necessarily paying a higher price than those who don't and in this most literal sense, do value it most.

There are many parents who struggle to pay the cost and personally I feel it is a frightening responsibility as we do not have a large inexhaustable stash of family money. Parents like us do make considerable sacrifices, just to make sure our children have the best shot at getting an education. That is of course our choice and I suppose I should be grateful for it.

TodayToday - great post. You've really hit the nail on the head with those questions. We can all discuss the pros and cons of private education/moving to be within the catchment area of a particular school etc, but to be honsest, our children will still be OK, and they'll certainly succeed, even if their school isn't the top school, simply because the parents on here obviously value their children's education. They will help them out as much as they can, be it through private tutors, hard work on the PTA to help improve the school or whatever it takes.

The problem is always going to be those parents who don't value education and schools dealing with their children who have so faithfully learned to share their parents' values. That's a big reason why schools perform badly. Disruptive children can hold back classes, and I do wonder just how much children from educationally deprived backgrounds can be influenced by the presence of educationally encouraged children.

An anecdotal example - in my town, a school with a history of very poor performance was turned around completely to have the top SATS results, by virtue of changing the headteacher. As far as I know, the school didn't need to change or do away with it's catchment area.

Hmm, I seem to have gone off topic there re catchment areas. What I meant was there wasn't a sudden influx of 'different' children. Strong leadership and influence from the top down really helps and also more investment helps improve schools. I really don't see how banning private schools would have an effect on how good/poor other schools are.

Quite hoppybird its a bit insulting to the 93% of parents at state school to assume the 7% who attend private school wield enough poewer and influence to change the state system

How absurd

I don't think that charging an entry fee is in any way a form of "artificiality" of a network/tribe. I don't think that the fact that parents make a decision on behalf of their children makes that network artificial either - all parents make myriad decisions on behalf of their minor offspring that shape their lives.

And I think that it is rarely the case in this day and age that people receive favours without merit. The world has become a highly competitive place - if going to a certain school/university gives you a better preparation for the competition, lucky you. But just having the name on your CV won't get you far in that tough competition that is life - you actually have to deliver.

"But just having the name on your CV won't get you far in that tough competition that is life" - no, you probably will get found out in the end, agreed. But what it might do, and what makes me uncomfortable, is get you an opportunity - a "leg-up" if you like, instead of having to face open competition, and that does make me uncomfortable.

I think this is an interesting and complex topic, Anna, particularly in terms of tribes/networks, etc, but I suspect it's way off tangent for this thread! May start a more specific one later (but baby has just woken up, so not just now).

Life is a competition that starts before birth .

Many parents give their children opportunities that will enable them to get ahead in the competition. Where is the rule book that says that at [some given age] we have to level out the playing field, discard all the leg-ups that our parents have given us (genetically, financially, socially or whatever) and start from scratch?

It would matter if, because you had [well-known school/university] on your CV you could earn megabucks while not delivering while some poor soul who was better at delivering than you wasn't allowed an interview. But I really don't think that this is the case in this day and age.

As parents we all give our children all the leg ups we can, lets not pretend we don't

Habbibu - would you discourage your dd from applying to Oxbridge incase that 'network' got her a foot in the door for a job?

I have friends who have used their parents friends to get a foot in the door of quite prestigious careers. Maybe you shouldn't boast about the little friendship network you are part of ;)

Today - honestly, I'd advise her to apply to the University which was best for the subject she wanted to study! In some cases this may be Oxford and Cambridge, in many cases not. This is pretty close to my heart, as I work in Higher Education, and have seen Oxbridge graduates get jobs in HE because of the "name" for which frankly, they were not the best candidates.

And I'm fully aware of the conflict between the social network I have, and the old girls network I said I was uncomfortable with. The reason I described it in my initial post was to demonstrate that in sending my child to a state school I wasn't necessarily depriving her of anything. I hope it didn't come across as boasting - that certainly was not the intention.

I'd happily suggest to her that she should ask my friends for advice in her chosen careers, but would want her applications, etc to be fair and open. The patronage system in HE can be just ridiculous, and is not of benefit to the system as a whole.

To add to this debate, there is an interesting article in to-day's Education section of The Guardian. A new book is basically saying we are back to Victorian times in terms of educational segregation.

education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,2248284,00.html