Babies and jobs: no easy choices (tell us something we didn't know)

[winnie1]

Thought this would interest mnters....

www.guardian.co.uk/child/story/0,7369,1358939,00.html

no link

friend of mine wrote it

Mmmm. Quite surprised to read that working mums increasing now at 68%. I kind of got the impression that it was falling as there seems to be a bit of a backlash going on.

Interesting article.

A related article that took my breath away though was this one:

extended school hours

This has probably been discussed before, but I've not seen it previously. Don't know what anyone else thinks but I think it's ridiculous.

Thanks MI, sorry Flum I am cr*p with links

Flum - I know what you mean. I'm definitely in the minority within my group of friends with all of them going out to work except me and one friend who just this summer gave up her job as a secondary school language teacher. Her ds is 3.5 and dd 2 - she says she cannot believe how guilty she feels now for putting them in nursery at 6 months - she didn't feel it at all at the time but now is really battling feelings of guilt. She says she is getting a lot closer, particularly to her dd and this is a mother that out of work hours did EVERYTHING with her kids anyway - plus she only worked 3 days a week!

Anyway, I digress, I wonder if the whole issue will come full circle with many women deciding that going out to work, full time at least, is just not good for them or their family? On the other hand, do we really think that women have come this far, just to go back to the way it was in the 50's??

I personally would like to see more SAHMs but then of course it's entirely up to the individual what they want to do and each of us is quite within our rights to do whatever works for our own families. My personal view (and I hope I'm not going to get jumped on for it, because it's only my opinion)is that there is nothing better for children than to have their mummies around when they are babies and their parents dropping them off and picking up from school. The thought of longer days or using breakfast and after school clubs every day just makes me feel sick. There is no balance there whatsoever.

My giving up work would be extremely bad for our mortgage, which relies on both our public sector salaries in our not very splendid part of London. Nice to have the choice.

I feel absolutely no guilt about putting both my children with a childminder at four months. I probably should, but quite frankly with my first daughter, in particular, I was starting to go under. I fully anticipate that we will have to use after-school care next year too.

My giving up work would mean the mortgage wouldn't get paid! Like MI I don't feel guilty about going back to work (it's right for me....) - do get tired of my inlaws and parents trying to make me and dp feel guilty thou'

Gobbledegook - My mum worked all the time and has told me to 'Think very carefully before deciding to work full time because once you get used to two salaries, get a bigger mortgage/house blah blah blah it is very difficult to change'

I think there is a lot of sense in that.

I do also think though that a lot of people have no choice for many reasons, but one contributing factor is house prices. My theory is that house prices have increased so much because so many households DO have two incomes. It used to be that one income had to pay the mortgage and that held house prices at a reasonable level.

My dh and I both work and still can't afford to buy a house/flat/garage/cupboard. We rent - more expensive than mortgage but we don't have deposit.

I spend all our money on clothes - hee hee, who cares, we have a roof of sorts!

I stayed at home initially, hated it, became very depressed and the knock on effect was very bad for our children. I think it should be about choice but often isn't. Most families, like us, need two incomes. We don't have 'luxuries', it is just about surviving. Really loathe the fact that whilst we are supposed to be a family friendly society going out to work when one has small children is so very, very difficult

Like many others I actually want to work - aside from financial issues. I love the independence it gives me. BUT I do find it a struggle - it's the long hours that are hard, particularly with a 1.5 hour commute each way. And I work part-time, but even that has increased from 3-4 days per week under pressure from work.

For me the ideal is part-time working, but with less of a commute, or some allowance made so I could get home early enough to have some time with my dd.

I love the things my dd gets up to on her days with the childminder - she does a whole load of stuff that I would never do with her. Then on my days with her she does stuff that the childminder would never do. So it's great variety for her.

What interests me is where are the men in all this. I know some men do get involved, but by and large it's the women who are still going part-time or giving up work and trying to cope with the consequences of being pulled in all these different directions.

couldn't agree more pidge. I am really sick of reading articles like this where the FATHERS are invisible. it just perpetuates the idea that this is a problem for women to sort out themselves, and tends to relegate men to the status of walking wallet.

dp works p-t hence the fact our mortgage wouldn't get paid if I quit work. He worked p-t before we had ds.....so ds goes to nursery whilst dp's at work, and dp has him the other days.....Not always ideal of dp I must admit as he is supposed to be working from home (own business!!) Know what you mean about the two salary thing - for years we lived in a house that took one (quite low/reasonable) salary to cover whilst I climbed the greasy pole....now we live in a house that takes my salary and dp counldn't cover it! Did think last night about downsizing...

I work because I want to. DS loves nursery and is a very happy boy. The fun and love he gets there is as good as, and in a lot of cases, way superior to what he would get at home with me or dp. I was at home with him for 8 months and just couldn't deal with it - I desperately needed to be at work and am jealous of people who can hack it as a SAHM/D. With this one I intend to take a 12 week leave. I just want to be back at work!

I feel guilty about not feeling guilty IYKWIM......sometimes think I'm an unnatural mother...

Flum, you are right - I think because perhaps women may have babies at an older age now, many have already got a career and couples have bought property/built a lifestyle based on 2 salaries. Obviously this is why people feel that they have no choice but to go back to work after children.

Then of course, there are people that want to go back to work and that is their choice.

I'll bet that for the majority of women, the ideal would be to work in school hours and term time only, while still able to advance their careers and earn a decent salary! Those jobs just don't seem to exist, unless of course you work for yourself.

Why do you think I chose my name, Blackduck?

To be fair - oh how I hate being fair - Fathers Direct is quoted remonstrating somewhat feebly at the bottom of the piece.

Oh, and I work for myself to an extent, GdG, but I can't just shut up shop for all those weeks a year. Quite apart from anything else, I'd starve to death.

It's misleading to say fathers do a third of the childcare, surely? There are some statistics in this report here - unless I've misunderstood, three times as many mothers are at home full-time compared to fathers (30%) and TWELVE times as many mothers are working part-time (36%). The thing I hate about the way the newspapers tackle this issue is that they encourage women to criticise each other, rather than asking MEN why they haven't made sufficient compromises for their children and making MEN feel guilty. I agree with Gobbledigook that the ideal is for parents to look after their own children and be there for them after school, etc. but my ideal is that men and women should share this equally.

The other thing I wonder about is the profit being made by larger nursery businesses where the shareholders are men but the workers are low-paid women. I may be wrong but the after-school clubs look like another juicy PFI opportunity - they're not going to make teachers work longer hours but they need the private sector to fill in the gap.

by the way, it's fine for a mother to choose to stay at home. If it wasn't for SAHMs I wouldn't have such a fantastic childminder. I would still like to see the status of part-time work elevated and more men choosing to go part-time.

I'd like to see all parents having the right to take part time work, not just the right to ask for it.

But for that to work, the government would actually have to give employers some tax incentives to make that happen - they cannot expect employers to pay for a fair society, it's their job to ensure it happens, not employers'.

And I'd also like to see a reduction of the normal working week to about 30 at the most. Why we still need the Victorian model of an eight hour day five days a week, when we have access to a much larger pool of workers, is beyond me.

Me too MI - in the school holidays I'll have to go back to how it is now - my kids are not in school yet so I have them all day and then have to shut myself in the office in the evenings and for some of the weekend. I guess I'll have to go back to that when they are on school hols and, like now, it's bloody knackering, but I know at the same time I'll be lucky enough not to have to worry about childcare and I can be around to go on days out, have the kids friends round etc. During term time, I'll be lucky enough to basically have work in school hours and be able to drop and pick up too.

At the end of the day, nothing we choose is ideal is it? Whatever we decide to do, something is sacrified - either time with the children or career/status. There really is no way we can 'do it all' is there? And others are right, there does need to be more emphasis on how men can help to redress the balance because the ball is still very firmly in the mothers court when it comes to making decisions about going to work/staying at home.

Why doesn't society recognise the value of parenting? Old fogies and the voluntarily childless are quick to condemn unruly children and yob culture, but in the same breath complain about "subsidising" maternity/paternity leave, etc. A bit more help for those parents who want to spend more time bringing up their children and less time working could make a huge difference to our society.

And those who choose not to have children and complain about their taxes paying for other people's childcare should think about who will be contributing to the economy from which they'll want their pensions to be paid.

The govt should look to change working hours and working culture, not to provide ever-longer hours of childcare.

For the record, I work part-time and believe that parents should have a choice. Being a SAHM would be nice (never thought I'd say that!), but the mortgage would be a problem...