Won the right to appeal…worried about outcome (Archie Battersbee)

[WhatsHoppening]

Firstly I can’t imagine the parents pain and I understand they are deeply grieving and are desperate. They’ve been led on by the Christian charity lawyers and are very vulnerable. I also understand the want to fight to the death for your child even if I disagree with it personally.

As a HCP I am very concerned if the next court case rules in favour of the family and to continue to keep the poor child ventilated/continuing intervention. My perspective as well as anyone I know in healthcare understands he is brain dead and deteriorating. Caring for a patient like that would be traumatic for the staff although of course that’s not the point.

If we allow families to ‘choose’ whether people continue to be ventilated against medical advice this sets a dangerous precedent. We need to able to trust health care professionals and, in my opinion, the focus should have been supporting the family emotionally rather than starting a ‘fight’ and ‘purple wave’. It costs hundreds and thousands of NHS money to keep this poor child ‘breathing’ and more in lawyers fees. You can’t keep brain dead people alive like a living shrine because you’ll be sad if they die. I so hope the court agrees with the original ruling and the family get the counselling and support they need.

I don’t think the Court of Appeal wanted to rule on a new standard for testing brain death

Does then mean then, that the High Court’s declaration that Archie died at the end of May is accepted (legally) and is no longer in dispute?

In which case, the “best interests” argument centres on the well-being of a dead person.

Now they have drafted in Justice Hayden for July 11, who has experience in best interests cases - he was the judge in the Evans case

Sure that will bring up a load of conspiracy rubbish...

the thread i started has been reinstated if anyone is interested

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4573803-archie-battersbee-case?page=9&reply=118226294

No, it’s all a bit confusing but I think it’s the opposite. The Court of Appeal thought that such a declaration cannot be made in the absence of a doctor being prepared to certify death, and apparently no doctor was willing to do so outside of the current code of practice. The Court of Appeal seems to think Arbuthnot J shouldn’t have considered the declaration of death (to any standard of proof) in those circumstances.

Exactly.

For the Court of Appeal to uphold the High Court judgment they are stating that in their opinion brain stem death can now be diagnosed through MRI. This is not in medical code of conduct when verifying brain stem death. For the Court of Appeal to agree with the High Court is to open them up to challenge on the grounds that an MRI is sufficient. The Supreme Court would have needed to hear it and give it the appropriate weight that a drastic change in the law requires.

@AnotherDayAnotherView have you even read the judgement? The family aren't getting through this by 'drawing on their faith' as you suggest - they have described themselves as only "vaguely christian" and non-church goers - this fight has nothing to do with their faith, it's about their perhaps understandable inability to accept that their beautiful boy is dead. And a large part of the reason why they have been unable to accept this is because they have been prayed upon by the Christian Right who don't give a crap about Archie, but who are trying to advance their own cause - it's despicable, and any truly religious person would think the same (and would be equally outraged about it). The family do need to stop this, and they deserve help and support to do that. Unfortunately it is clear that they aren't getting it, and what support the hospital is trying desperately to give, is lost on them due to this influence

The religion aspect is clearly a case of grasping at straw, hoping it will buy more time

So very sad all round

Very interesting and I think you might be right.

oh good. A sensible judge.

I think @drivinmecrazy has hit the nail in the head. Unbelievably tragic for them.

I have lots of sympathy for Hollie - I think she’s lost sense of reality.

And as for their Face Book page for Alfie’s Army…..I have never seen, or read, so many deluded comments. It’s frightening.

Im sure the right decision for Archie will be made next week x

The appeal has been turned down. I hope his family can find peace in knowing that they did everything possible

i think they can appeal further.

The appeal has been turned down. I hope his family can find peace in knowing that they did everything possible

i don’t agree they’ve done everything possible. They’ve kept his heart beating in his dead body long after he was gone.

it’s not “what every parent would do”. Parents every day have to let their children go, and most realise “doing everything possible” is a pain free and dignified death, and if they opt for organ donation at least some positive. Not watching your child slowly decay.

this will traumatise a lot of parents who made that best decision for their child.

Archie has been dead with no chance of recovery for 3 months. The doctors would not have gone to court if their was even the slightest chance of a meaningful recovery.

Hollie said on TV that she would take it to the supreme Court if necessary

I'm more concerned that his parents would want him alive in any state (she described this as such and also 'vegetative state) as preferable to dead.
It depends how you determine quality of life and also how the child would want to exist.

Suspect that if Archie had died in a car crash not accidentally hanging himself the family would have arranged the funeral by now. Awful for them.

CPR has a lot to answer for, too. There’s more to life than a heartbeat - I didn’t know you could ventilate a corpse, but that’s what’s happening in the Whitechapel. How can any of this help anyone?

There are different types of death. Brainstem death is particularly cruel, I think, because the person still looks the same.

Sometimes, a person can be just alive enough that they can breathe and their heart beats, but not enough that they have any degree of consciousness. The only way they will die is if they starve to death, or if some infection takes hold and isn't treated, or if they go into organ failure and it isn't treated.

In Archie's case, it seems, there is not enough brain function (or any) to breathe for himself. But the heart has pacemaker cells that put out electrical signals to contract the heart, all on their own. The ventilator is supplying the heart muscle with oxygen. As a young, fit, child his heart will beat.

and there is a real risk of infection with the breathing tubes

I worked in a charity with a high proportion of very Bible-literal, conservative evangelical colleagues at one point (not a good match!).

They believed 100% that God could/would intervene if the person asking had enough faith.

One woman had a severely disabled child, born healthy but wandered off age 2 and fell in a pond, drowned and was brought back with severe brain damage. She saw her child's survival as God's intervention as the child was 'dead for 45 minutes'. She believed that if her faith was strong enough her child would be healed.

I agree with the PP who said that their actions were not 'what every parent would do' or should do. I was hoping that they could now accept that their lovely boy has gone.

But they are talking about him being 'a fighter', so they will keep appealing. They can't accept he isn't there any more.

Years ago a colleague's teen son hanged himself. It destroyed her.

Yes, if it had been a car crash I am sure it would be easier to face.

From sounds nope. From what has been posted it's again about organs,the judge is anti life so they knew this was coming and it given time he'll wake and they can go from there...so it's still going though after Monday I guess not?

The absolute ignorance being spouted on the Army thread is sickening. Telling Hollie to put Nutella or Honey in his mouth; plant his fingers in soil. And desperate illiterate attempts at emailing paed intensive care specialists around the world trying to get someone/anyone to give them hope.

As for the libellous comments about the Judge and the hospital wanting his organs......... words actually fail me.

I saw a tweet saying Archie's mum should be pushed to see a grief counsellor and I agree. Her reaction to his tragic situation is understandable but not healthy or sustainable. He can't be kept 'alive' as he is now forever, that's not living. She needs to be supported to let go of her sweet boy, and the people around her need to realise that too.

All these grief vultures getting involved. Just like Charlie Gard all over again. Some people are really, truly thick. It's scary.

From what has been posted it's again about organs,the judge is anti life so they knew this was coming

That is one of the most profoundly stupid things I have ever read on MN.