Calling social workers...

[edam]

inspired by somethihng WWW said on the Fran Lyon thread...

Do you think that it is possible that social workers sometimes make mistakes?

Yes, of course it's possible.

But we're not the evil numpty's that are sometimes portrayed in the media.

I don't think anyone on MN has suggested you are.

No, I know. But the media do at times, & random comments from clients & other members of the general public would suggest that we aren't a popular lot and are perceived as being a bit dim or misguided. Which maybe some of us are! But not the majority.

So... given social workers aren't superhuman, do you think it is just possible that they may have made a mistake in Fran Lyon's case? Or A.N. Other's case, if you don't want to talk about specific people?

I get that SWs are often working in an area of hideous staff shortages, with under-qualified people like that poor girl who missed Victoria Climbie dealing with massive responsibilities. But... the Sally Clark tragedy, not to mention Angela Cannings, Donna Anthony, Trupti Patel and others have common features. Haven't seen any evidence that those who work in child protection (inc. people from health and the legal system, not just social care) have addressed the systemic failings demonstrated by those cases. That's what worries me.

What I mean is, in a case where a baby hasn't actually been born yet, how on earth can SS be confident that they need to take the baby away at birth, unless there is very clear evidence of incompetence or malevolence?

(on the part of the mother, I mean, not SS - say someone who is a serious drug addict unable to function day to day?)

TMW- it's the numpties of any profession that make media news! Sadly mistakes in your field can have far more serious consequneces than most.

I just think it a shame that because of a combination of over-PC approach combined with chronic underfunding the SW field has got a particularly bad press. Now with the recent cases & FL maybe why can't the profession hold it's hands up & acknowledge there have been mistakes & reassure the public that specific steps have been taken to change policy & procedures NATIONALLY? Not just the blanket statement "lessons have been learned- this will not happen again" which we have been hearing since Maria Caldwell in the 70's!

Also if something had worked well in certain councils why not share it & publicise it (albeit internally) to keep up standards?

Easier said than done I know!

Hello,

I'm not sure if I should post on this thread or not. It may well be time for me to pull back and let people get on with a wider conversation that can't get stuck in the details of my case. If it'd be helpful for me to leave well alone then please do let me know!

All I wanted to say was that I think it's hard for anyone to admit their mistakes. I think it's incredibly hard to admit to them when their consequences are so vast and extreme. I want to be exceptionally clear hear - I am not just talking about social workers, it applies equally to parents.

I know I have made many mistakes in my life and I know that they, in part, have caused the situation I find myself in today. To admit to that publicly, to accept responsibility and face the need for support and change is not an easy process. It is a necessary one for the welfare of my daughter, but it is not easy. Of course I would rather be enjoying my pregnancy free from any of this, and looking forward to coming home with Molly. I am prepared to accept people's concerns however and work with professionals in order to secure the best outcome for Molly.

I assume, but can't know, that it is equally difficult for a social worker to say "oh christ, we might have over-stepped the mark here, or been a bit over-zealous". The consequences of such admissions in some cases would be difficult, if not impossible, to redress.

I do not believe anyone comes lightly into these scenarios - nor do I believe anyone involved intentionally causes anyone else harm. Social workers are neither stupid nor evil - they have incredibly difficult jobs to do, with immense responsibility, in a system that doesn't support them. I believe whole heartedly though that whilst ever the system is as adversarial, judgemental and punitive (for all parties) as it is now it will be nigh on impossible for either side to climb down a little and admit to their human fallibility.

We are none of us perfect.

Fran

Here's another very worrying story about social workers and care and adoption proceedings -

link

"Solicitor jailed for snatching own baby daughter from social workers
By ANDREW LEVY - More by this author »Last updated at 22:40pm on 8th November 2007

A solicitor who snatched his baby from two care workers before going on the run has been jailed for 20 months.

Jonathan Phillips, 40, punched the two women, one of whom was heavily pregnant, before grabbing his daughter and speeding away in his car.

The child had been taken into care because of concerns over his wife's mental health - although the couple insist she does not present a risk.

They were allowed to visit their daughter for two hours every day at a family contact centre in King's Lynn, Norfolk. But Phillips lashed out because he felt staff were treating her too roughly.

He shouted, "Take your hands off my baby" before overturning a table, attacking the women and seizing his child, who was four months old at the time.

Phillips, a soldier in the Territorial Army, fled with his wife Erica and the child, who cannot be named for legal reasons. They were stopped on the M6 near Birmingham later the same day.

Before he was sentenced he said: "I was acting under extreme provocation. Social services had taken our baby into care under dubious circumstances and whenever we visited her, the staff handled her roughly, overfed her and generally ill-treated her.

"I lashed out in the heat of the moment. I could see my family crumbling before me.

"Now the tragedy is that she looks set to be adopted and we will not be able to see her again until she is 18."

Norwich Crown Court heard that Norfolk County Council gained an interim care order in May to place the child in foster care because of Mrs Phillips's mental health. The couple say they have independent evidence showing she was capable of looking after her baby.

Mark Shelley, defending, said Phillips was "a well respected and popular solicitor".

"It was not a planned snatch," he said. "It was a culmination of emotions as he could see his daughter slipping away from him."

The court heard the two care workers suffered cuts and bruises during the attack in August.

Phillips was jailed on Tuesday for 12 months for kidnap and eight months to run consecutively for the assaults.

"These are extremely serious charges and I cannot see them in any other light," Judge Paul Downes told him.

Mrs Phillips, a qualified cardiology nurse, said afterwards that staff at the contact centre were rude and would go out of their way to upset them. She added: 'My husband is a decent man and a kind and loving father and had no criminal convictions before this.'

Norfolk County Council said the sentence sent out a strong message that violence against its staff was unacceptable."

Sorry, but a man who punches a heavily pregnant woman is not a 'decent man'

Extreme stress makes people act out of character.

I agree he should be punished but the punishment seems harsh and putting their baby up for adoption even harsher.

of course it is.
i was a social worker for years. the whole time i was being abused at home....BIG mistake

But that was my personal life and nothing to do with my ability to do my job.

we all make mistakes. there are many Dr's and nurses that make mistakes every day...with fatal consequences. do we here of "the incompetance of the medical proffession" though? no of course nto becasue the vast majority and excellent and under valued.

is it any wonder this is a proffession that is so understaffed? no one wants to join the job because it is one where you are hated.
no one WANTS to have a SW in their life. it measn something is wrong, your not coping properly for whatever reason.

so its easy for people to see us as evil or flawed

No-one's saying social workers are 'evil and flawed' but Mamazon posted on another thread as follows:

" By mamazon on Wed 07-Nov-07 22:39:55
because whils i understand the horrific hurt this woman must be feeling right now at the thought of losing a child, i am a social worker and like to think my proffession is still able to do its job properly.

i still have enough faith in it to trust that those who are in posession of the FULL FACTS know what they are doing.

i trust that not only must 3 or 4 SW's have been involved with making this decision, they h ave gone on the word of a meidcal expert adn also a judge have all decided that there is enough evedence to indicate potential harm to her child."

And in response my post on the other thread said

By Wickedwaterwitch on Sat 10-Nov-07 14:18:41
You know it's interestng that some social workers on mn say "I find it hard to believe that my colleagues in SS are wrong about this" or words to that effect. I work in finance and wouldn't dream of saying "Hey, I bet my colleagues at Arthur Anderson were wrong about Enron" - professionals of all types can and do make mistakes. "

Although come to think about it they were VERY wrong about Enron! But I guess if I'd have said "oh no, Andersens (as was) know what they're doing, it they say Enron is a sound business then it must be, they're professionals doing a tough job". That was my point.

It's so easy to pretend that fair criticisms of social workers' actions mean that we are saying social workers are evil or flawed.

How about addressing what the system is actually doing to people rather than taking it as a personal attack every single time. And I don't mean just you Mamazon, just about every social worker I've seen on-line has chosen to take concrete criticisms and twist them into meaning that social workers are evil, corrupt, in conspiracies etc etc. The thing is no-one has said that, what we have done is point out specific cases where the system isn't working.

i dont take it personally.
i was nto a child protection SW nor did i work within children and families department.

BUT people will find ONE case that they find hard to understand or that seems a little beyond their comfort zone adn make genreal assumptions.
there are umpteen posts on these FL threads saying things like "social workers amke these mistakes all teh time"

no they dont.
each Sw will have a case load of about 50-100 families (minimum) at any one time. most of those will have no action taken other than maybe a few supervision visits or some refferals to otehr agencies.

of teh small percentage that do require a child to be taken into care 98% of the time it doesn't make teh news because everyone accepts that it is teh right course of action.

Yes there are a number (3?) of cases that spring to mind where SW took teh word of eminant professionals....top pedeatricians! and have acted upon the information they have been given.

it is not the social workers who were to blame in those cases it was the DR that told them they needed to remove the child for their own saftey.
In fact in a couple of thiose cases SW were not even part of the case it was a lega proceeding following a cot death.

anyway, what i am saying is that yes there may be a 0.0005% that are wrong or at least could have been handled differently but i am still of the opinion that i would rather have a child removed JUST IN CASE than wait and be proved right.

Seriously? Of course!!!!

Well it would probably help if social services depts didn't consult PAEDIATRICIANS when they really needed to consult a PSYCHIATRIST. And it would also give them some credibility if they made sure any letters from these paediatricians were based on actually meeting the patient, not on watching telly (as Roy Meadows did)

If you weren't taking it personally then why did you characterise criticisms as calling social workers "evil and flawed". Nobody said any such thing.

Social workers worked closely with Southall and Meadow. Most of the mistakes in the family courts regarding them haven't come to light because they are still sub judice. Children grow up though so I'm sure we'll begin to hear of a lot more cases where they got it very, very wrong.

"i am still of the opinion that i would rather have a child removed JUST IN CASE than wait and be proved right "

And this is where you are not acting in the best interests of the child. Separating a child from its parents is abusive unless the parents are already harming a child. Talking about "risk" rather than actual facts is ridiculous in a scenario where you could cause a child long term harm by taking it into care.

What I mean is that being in care is definitely damaging to a child. It may be less damaging than being left with abusive parents but there is no escaping the damage that being in care causes.

Agree that removing a child "just in case" isn't necessarily in the best interests of the child.

WWW i was talking in general not specifically about the FL case.

Elizabeth - it is also widely accepted that it is better for a child to stay wioth a parent, even a bad parent than to be placed in care.

which is why i feel there must be more evedence than Miss lyon is putting out there.

im sorry but when ALL the facts are available i will cast judgements of this case, until then i will assume that correct protocal and procedure have been followed and trust the judgements made by those in reciept of the full story

In response to the OP, I'm not a social worker but yes I think they make mistakes, as does everyone at times.

I do think that in certain professions/areas of work mistakes have more important consequences than in others... I remember estate agent coc-ups when I was moving house and being irate because if I'd made mistakes of the same gravity at work I would probably have killed someone iyswim!

I'm not sure that the article linked to by Elizabett is that helpful in this discussion. We don't understand the full circumstances of the case but it's difficult to make a positive judgement of a man who assaults a pregnant woman in any circumstances.

A lot of guidance about child protection now teaches health care professionals to consider possible child abuse as you would any other potentially fatal childhood disease, eg meningicoccal disease. So if a child presents with a non-blanching rash we would at least observe them in hospital, often do some blood tests and sometimes start them on antibiotics, if we think that they might have meningococcal disease. The emphasis is on ensuring that the child is safe until we can be sure that they are not at risk of a fatal illness.

Similarly if doctors think that a child might be a victim of abuse then they are obliged to try to ensure their safety, usually by referring them to social services who are then responsible for investigating. Again the emphasis is on ensuring theafety of the child.

This means that just as we probably treat quite a lot of children with antibiotics who don't have meningitis we also probably refer quite a lot of children who are not being abused. Whilst this approach is intended to prevent another case like Victoria Climbie's where some medical professionals made mistakes it may well lead to innocent parents being investigated. It's a very difficult balance.

Because treating someone with antibiotics is analgous to removing a child from a loving family who are not doing it any harm. Good grief. We're back to the bland reassurances that no harm is being done when harm is definitely being done. Taking children into care damages them - that risk does not appear to be being acknowledged when these decisions are taken.

Do you understand the concept of provocation LaDiDaDi, I'm not excusing what that man did, but a lot of people if they saw their child being mistreated might react violently.

And once again, we are only hearing about this case because of the criminal proceedings involved. If he hadn't committed a crime everything that was being done to this family would be secret.

SS are responsible for investigating. That does not mean removing a child.

I do understand the concept of provocation but really I find it hard to think that violence against a pregnant woman is acceptable. If she had been his partner I don't think that anyone here would be suggesting that any provocation could justify his behaviour, I find it difficult to see why her status as a social worker should change that sentiment tbh.

Out of interest, how do care systems/family courts work in other countries? I don't know, does anyone else?