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Do you back opt-out organ donation>

136 replies

eleusis · 19/10/2007 09:44

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7051235.stm

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I appreciate they are trying to save lives and that is of course a good thing. But, I think people should have to give consent for their organs to be removed, not consent to have them left in tact. There's just something creepy out thinking my organs will be taken away the second I am pronouncec dead. But, if you asked me if I'd be willing to donate my organs when I die I'd say yes of course. I guess I just want to choice to be mine (or my next of kin).

OP posts:
3andnogore · 19/10/2007 17:38

Lady Muck I opted in a while back...

BTW, I think it would be a good policy, that , if you opt-out of donating you also opt-out of receiving....is that how it will go?
However, how will this effect children?

LadyVictoriaOfCake · 19/10/2007 17:40

i dont agree with that if you opt out you cant recieve. people often change their minds about organ doantion once they know someone who needs a organ. i know that peters situation has changed a lot of peoples minds over organ donation.

i dont belive it should be an all or nothing approach.

3andnogore · 19/10/2007 17:45

Hm...but if they would introduce opt-out, those that feel really strongly about it, would opt-out...and surely if they wouldn't want to give up an organ, they would neither feel comfortable with receiving one?

As long as Kids saren't refused organs on these grounds, I think it would be a sensible rule....

LadyMuck · 19/10/2007 17:48

I guess I'm interested in why people haven't opted in yet would be in favour of an opt-out? Is anyone willing to admit that they can't be arsed to opt in and need it to be done automatically for them?

LadyVictoriaOfCake · 19/10/2007 17:50

not always 3andnomore. people honestly dont realise the impact donationg makes on other peoples lives. i have met a few (not many admittingly) who werent for organ doantion before. afterall, no-one ever thinks it will happen to them.

i think refusing people organs based on whether or not they would donate is a very rocky road to go down. everyone has a right to lifem and that includes those against doanting, because they have the rioght to change their minds. and as thei organs havent yet been used and they are alive, it just seems wrong to me.

they might change their minds after recieving an organ and go onto donate whatever they can after their deaths.

cat64 · 19/10/2007 17:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

3andnogore · 19/10/2007 17:59

Lady Muck, I think most people that have opted in are for the opt out, because they obviously believe in Organ Donation, if that makes sense...

LTH...but, as it is now, people are not thinking about it that much, like you say, you don't like to think of ever being in need...however....if you hvae to actively opt-out, then you would have thought about it and therefore made a decision based on your believes, wouldn't you....unlike with the opt in...where not being on the registre doesn't really reflect your believes...not sure if I am making sense...

StIncognita · 19/10/2007 18:18

Neverenough, in answer to your question 'what is the point opting out?', some people object on religious or personal ethical grounds, and should still be able to do so.

I think I'm agreeing with LM, really. I would be very concerned at any perceived notions of the state owning bodies after death, I think.

TheQueenOfQuotes · 19/10/2007 18:24

well I've opted in - but I don't think there should be an opt-out system.

Just out of interest - what happens if you've signed up online, but don't actually have a card (incidently I've never seen anywhere where I could pick one up ) and die without NOK available to make a the decision???

ShinyHappyPurpleSeveredHeads · 19/10/2007 19:21

You don't need a card if you are on the register. Or if you aren't on the register and your family know your wishes. Or if you family don't know your wishes but they give consent according to their own wishes.

Many people would take great comfort in knowing that the death of their loved one has resulted in saving someone elses life. I think people should be forced (via the media) to consider these things. Consideration of death (which we will all face) is part of being a grown up person, indeed part of being alive! It doesn't have to be dwelt morbidly upon but to say it's "too upsetting to think about" for the amount of time it takes to make your wishes known is a bit wet really. And could result in lost opportunities that may have saved lives.

toothicky · 19/10/2007 19:22

Cat totally agree. Having said that a friend's dad died recently and wanted his body donated to medical research (had a rare heart condition). Apparently, although she was happy to go through with it, the doctors went through everything that would happen to her dad and what bits they would be taking and how, she was horrified and refused permission in the end. The doctors said that they had to tell her all of this. Has anybody heard of this before?

ShinyHappyPurpleSeveredHeads · 19/10/2007 19:26

There you go QofQ and anyone else.. make your own Donor Card to carry

bossybritches · 19/10/2007 19:28

I think in that case I would say

"stop right there you do what you have to do it's what Dad wanted I don't need the details!!"

But when you're in shock & grieving obviously you don't think like that

The bloody "sue everyone for my hurt feelings" mentality means EVERY last thing has to be spelled out by the docs in case you don't agree & try litigation afterwards.

I'm all for informed consent but sometimes......,

bossybritches · 19/10/2007 19:30

Nice one Shiny thanks!

Now I suggest if we all email that link to everyone in our address books we could start our own campaign rolling right now!!

The power of Mumsnet!

toothicky · 19/10/2007 19:33

I agree bossy, I think that is exactly why they tell you everything. Personally myself I don't want to know. This can only put people off. My FIL died on the day that he was due to have a bypass op and my MIL is absolutely adamant that it was because the doctors told him exactly what they were going to do and it sent his stress levels soaring.

pooka · 19/10/2007 19:34

I would definitely back an opt-out system. Like others have said, those who are strongly anti would no doubt make the effort to ensure that their organs were not harvested.

I do not, however, agree that organs should not be available for those who have opted out. I really do think that the service should exist for all those who need organs, regardless of their own willingness to donate. Is a slippery slope, allowing there to be exceptions like that.

I donate/have donated blood in the past (am anaemic now so not at present) and would expect blood (ok, not as important as an organ, but an example) to be given to whoever needs it, full stop.

MyTwopenceworth · 19/10/2007 19:38

The choice still would be yours. You would choose to opt out if you were not happy about organ donation.

I am in favour of an opt out system. I think we should get to a point where it is just normal for organs to be harvested.

vixma · 19/10/2007 19:48

Yes, definetly. Although I would give my organs I feel it should be a personal decision should be left to the doner.

TeeJaye · 19/10/2007 19:53

I think 'Opt out' is the only way to go, it's shocking the number of organs that go to waste because people just don't want to think about their own death. That's a perfectly natural reaction but we all know it's inevitable (at the moment anyway ) and if asked on their deathbed, I'm sure many of those people would actually agree.

People should be forced to think and decide but the choice should always be theirs and they should never be made to feel bad if they decide against it. It could possibly be done when you're given your NI number - it won't be able to used before you register and the subject of donation could be one of the questions.

People are actually dying because others are either scared to think about their own death or too apathetic and that's really sad.

TheQueenOfQuotes · 19/10/2007 19:53

I guess most of you have never met people that (for example) don't know much about having a driving license, needing a TV license, what age kids have to start formal education, that breastfeeding is best etc etc - if those messages don't get across fully to the nation why would a message that you have to opt-out of being an organ donor if you don't want to donate be any different?

Of course we, literate, media "savvy" people will easily find out about and understand an opt-out system but with the "success" of getting other messages across we're not exactly very successful when it comes to the less literate, those that don't watch tv/listen to the radio (and yes they exist - my parents only listen to Radio 3 - no adverts on there - and if there's "talking" dad turns the volume right down ).

MyTwopenceworth · 19/10/2007 20:00

Do they ever go to a doctor? The computer systems could be flagged up to prompt a gp to discuss. Could be a check on a persons medical records.

Benefits office, part of any claim or renewal. Pensions Dept. Tax credits. etc. Hospitals. ??

beautifuldays · 19/10/2007 20:08

haven't read the whole thread but in answer to to OP - no i don't agree with it.

basically i don't like the idea that your organs are property of the state unless you say otherwise. also don't trust the nhs re paperwork - how many times have they ballsed up? there would inevitably be cases where those who have opted out still had their organs taken because of a mistake. sorry just don't like the idea at all.

coleyboy · 19/10/2007 20:08

An interesting fact for you, you are more likely to need a donated organ, than donate one yourself.

I hate the train of thought that this is another conspiracy of the government to own our bodies. It is not about the government, it is about saving lives.

Whatever happens about opt-in or opt-out, I believe it is important that you discuss it, and that your family are aware of everyones wishes. This includes your decision regarding your dc.

Pooka - blood donation is still very important. It's not just the red blood cells that are important, it's all of the other blood products too. DS has received probably every type of blood product going, and without it, and the transplants he has had, he wouldn't be here.

LadyMuck · 19/10/2007 20:14

"it's shocking the number of organs that go to waste because people just don't want to think about their own death"

Sorry TeeJaye but how are you backing up this statement? As I understand the current procedure in the UK is that the Organ Register isn't used to determine which patients are considered to be organ donors. The transplant coordinators certainly use it for information but anyone can be asked to become a donor (although practically it will be the next of kin). Relatively few people have the types of injuries that mean that they are suitable donors - it is typically road traffic accdient victims. 40% of NOK refuse, but why is that not a valid conclusion from them. The proportion of people of "non-white" refusing is far higher than those of "white" ethnicity, so there could be a number of cultural or religious factors at play. Even amongst those who do sign up a rather large proportion choose not to donate their corneas for example.

Just because you wouldn't make the same decision doesn't mean that it is wrong.
Dh and I are both on the register and our NOK know our wishes. But I find it difficult to make a similar blanket decision for the dcs. Dh and I often travel for work, and the thought of having to consent to turning off life support for a dc before the other parent could get there would be immensely difficult for me (I'm just using this as a reason why I might not consent). The idea of this being a legal requirement frankly disturbs me.

A lot more can and should be done to improve knowledge before considering this step. Training and education for those coming into contact with relatives of potential donors would be a start. Having someone who can talk to you with a degree of empathy, who is able to talk to you in a native langauge, these are things that should be addressed first. The people skills of some of the doctors I have encountered in hospitals can be truly shocking and frankly I wouldn't trust most of them - I've been asked to sign a consent form for a hysterectomy despite being 12 weeks pg (and booked in for a cervical stitch), and the rundown for consent to a c/section was so badly done that I refused first time round.

TeeJaye · 19/10/2007 20:15

Exactly coleyboy, it's not as if the government will benefit from this! It's only for the benefit of the general public and that could be any one of us or our relatives one day.