Climate change and anti-airport expansion protest at Heathrow - are you with the protesters or BAA?

[Callisto]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6943549.stm

How about an air miles allowance then? We all get allocated enough miles per year for 1 x 500 mile flight say? I don't use mine as I prefer to holiday in Cornwall so I sell my allowance to Expat who wants to visit her rellys in the US?

did anyone see that hilarious footage when the Russian state controlled TV channel Rossiya used film footage from Titanic and claimed it was their submarines touching down on the Arctic ocean floor? [they may well have done it but used the fake footage anyway]

All this talk of oil reserves is well and good but global warming is going to change the look of this planet and the way we behave so dramatically i think again, it is going to be a rather passe discussion in years to come.

good idea Callisto!

The problem with that idea, Callisto, is that why should I have to buy someone's allowance when I haven't flown in over 5 years and whilst Brown swans around on his private jet?

Brown would have to dump the private jet obviously. Yeah, and giraffes might fly....

Great idea callisto
I'd happily surrender mine, we are a non-flying, shorthaul family these days, and don't need them
I'm with the protesters in principle, not least because BAA are making a total fist of running the airports at the moment. Flying for family reasons/essential business purposes, OK - but the huge growth in shorthaul leisure stuff worries me a lot in terms of its environmental impact. I wish rail travel could attract the same level of investment.
I feel very sad for people whose only holiday this year is likely to be even further disrupted by the protests though

I hate flying, though, I'd actually prefer going by boat.

Barring one of htose nasty stomach bugs cruise liners get, I think it'd be a fun way to cross the Atlantic!

The idea isn't mine - in fact I got it from David Cameron who sadly didn't have the guts to run with it.

I agree Expat, that it has flaws.

Argh, I agree with an idea of David Cameron's! Must not let dh find out
I wonder whether flying will just get so rubbish that more people will think like you (and me) expat. I loathe flying, adore boats and trains

I hate flying too and wouldn't have any issues with an allowance.

However, you'd need to have some sort of system in place to cope with business trips. Dh used to have to do long haul trips to the far east with his old company (very small - i.e. less than 6 employees) company. I'd have been really peed off if that meant we couldn't have visited friends in Spain that year because he'd used up all his allowance on business trips.

You can bet there'd be an allowance system for larger companies but for small companies/self-employed people these things generally cost too much and you can bet it'll be a struggle.

I would love to cross the Atlantic by boat and agree that flying sucks the big one.

My dad went round the Med/Middle East on tramp steamers after he was demobbed in WW2. The photos are something else and he had the most amazing time.
My ideal holiday - out to St Helena on their steamer

I can't believe they are even contemplating expanding Heathrow.

We've had to go there twice recently for connecting flights from Manchester (which pees me off in the first place!). They hardly seem able to cope with the current traffic. We sat on planes on the runway for an hour each time in the queue!

See the map at the bottom of Callisto's link? The villages of Harmondsworth and Sipson will be obliterated, destroying the homes of c 35,000 people and many historic buildings and wildlife areas; and the increased pollution, both noise and chemical, to the surrounding towns will be massive.

West London Friends of the Earth website

Why does Heathrow have to be the biggest hub in Europe/the world? Is it a man thing?

I do actually live in West London. But I'm not really that bothered by the planes... although the flight path runs a bit north of me.

I think this conversation is missing the global angle. I don't mind the ling haul internation flights because travelling any other way would take so long is wouldn't be feasible. But the government could do more to encourage people onto other forms of transportation.

But, anything we do needs to be global.

"eleusis, my family rely on oil exploration and production for our income and we meet regularly with representatives from oil producing nations. I'm the SAHM department so would have to check with those more knowledgable than me for links, if they have the time to supply them. (They are busy trying to make sure we don't run out of oil today.)"

Are you a member of the Saudi Royal family?

Am with the protesters, am always with protesters. Will now read thread.

I haven't flown for counts on fingers three years now, since deciding that I simply couldn't justify the environmental expense any more. I reasoned that, as my family all live in the UK and I don't have to fly for my job, AND I'm not a big fan of hot summer holidays anyway, I was perfectly placed to bin the flights - and if I couldn't do it, the chances that anyone else could/would were slim.

I haven't looked back since. No more airport hassle, no more guilt, wonderful holidays in the south of France, Paris, Orkney ... We were planning a trip to Georgia (Caucasus, not US) by train and boat next year, and it is unexpected pregnancy(!), rather than lack of convenience, that led us to shelve it for now. My only regret is that I've never been to New York - but like expat, I'd really rather like to go by boat. One day ...

All of which is a long-winded way of saying that I'm with the protestors. Can't bear the way people - and governments - constantly defer and refuse to take responsibility for their actions on this.

Star, what is your connection to the oil industry? (in general terms -- not looking for an office direct line)

eleusis - 'anything we do needs to be global'

This is exactly the kind of thinking that bothers me. Of course we need a global response, but sitting on our hands refusing to do anything until everyone else agrees to get involved is short-sighted and counterproductive. Surely it is better for us to clean up our own back yard while we're waiting for the rest of world to wake up?

France is a bigger country with smaller population and a lot more open space - a far better site for a European hub - why don't they do this?

(Because they have more sense?)

Well, I personally can't afford to pay for everyone else's behaviour. You shold be talking to China. And people who over 100MPH. And my DH who opens the fricken windows when the heat is on. Drives me crackers.

And we should have a viable alternative to plane travel!

Eleuisis, one of my parents is a leading advisor to the UK energy industry. As such they meet representatives from all over the world and attend meetings of oil producing groups. I'm not sure how much else to say b/c of confidentiality.

eleusis - you mean 'pay' in the sense of ... ?

Clearly China needs to be doing something, and they probably won't, and as a result the positive effect of all the measures we might take will be wiped out. But does that mean we oughtn't to take those measures anyway? Are we morally justified, given our awareness of the overwhelming scientific consensus on the subject of global warming, in saying 'we're not doing anything because they're not'?

In my opinion, no. The only thing we can be certain of having an effect on is our own behaviour. I can't making anyone else do anything they don't want to do, but I can make sensible, sustainable choices myself. As you said earlier on, the market will ultimately dictate our responses to the current situation, but as consumers we ought, in theory, to be able to control the market by withdrawing our custom.