Climate change and anti-airport expansion protest at Heathrow - are you with the protesters or BAA?

[Callisto]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6943549.stm

eleusis, you are believing what you want to believe.

I don't want to believe in peak oil in 15, 20 or 50 yrs. But it isn't a theory, it's around the corner.

The EU has got rid of set-aside b/c the land is needed for crop production. The reason? The US is growing biofules instead of wheat. They don't give a stuff about global warming but they are noticing a difficulty in oil supply.

yes, and not when there is huge short term profit to be made. Even if there is enough oil to last us for the next 500 years, we are not going to get the opportunity to use it at this rate.

They are already clearing rain forests to grow biofuels. This is the best solution put forward to and by the energy industry!

the lack of joined up thinking is truly frightening - and governments seem to be the worst culprits.

Who is going to really hit flying with meaningful taxes? No political party would dare, they'd never get voted in.

I agree that oil is at risk of running out at some point in the distant future if we continue at our current rate of use. However, to say that we are going to run out in 20 years is ill informed hysteria.

People will reduce their use when the prices goes too high. Plain and simple. It will be driven by economics.

Here's an idea, why doesn't the government take some of their green taxes and use them to subsidise train travel so that people will travel by train from Edinburgh to London rather than by plane. It is cheaper to go be plane. Try reducing costs to encourage peole on the greener form of transportation and not taxing them at every opportunity just to spend the tax money on something that has no green purpose at all. Use green taxes for gteen purposes. Now there's a novel idea!

"eleusis, you are believing what you want to believe."

Is that the best argument you can come up with? If you want to take on the well respected expertise of Daniel Yergin and CERA you are going to have to do much better than that.

Come on. I challenge you to battle of witts on oil supply.

'Here's an idea, why doesn't the government take some of their green taxes and use them to subsidise train travel so that people will travel by train from Edinburgh to London rather than by plane. It is cheaper to go be plane. Try reducing costs to encourage peole on the greener form of transportation and not taxing them at every opportunity just to spend the tax money on something that has no green purpose at all. Use green taxes for gteen purposes. Now there's a novel idea! '

That would make too much sense, eleusis!

Brown, put money on the masses and not just lip service? Surely you jest?

eleusis, I thought that argument was at least as good as your "Un huh... and the world is flat."

There is a debate about Peak Oil. Arguments for and against.

eleusis is right about Heathrow being the life blood of the local economy though - it is enormously important for London. I remember reading somewhere that it is the largest single site employer in the UK, let alone its importance as an airport to business in the UK (and not only passengers but freight v important).

But people have a right to protest. However, if they think their main disruption will be to BAA and not passengers (as they have said) then they are barking.

Then, present your case. I have provided a link and a name of a well respected author.

I'm all for alternative energy sources, such as nuclear (something we could learn from France). I am not for scaremonger such as oh my God oil will run out in 20 years and there will no more electricity.

I don't have a case. I don't have a strong view either way. I just thought your comment was a bit off, given that you had been just as offhand with your argument in your earlier post.

Oil exploration is alive and well, such as in the Noth Pole or in the Caspian

There world of exploration and production on new fields is alive and well.

What should scare you is the amount of supply into Western Europe which can be controlled by Russia. THAT will affect the pice in the near future far more then the amount of oil which actually exists on Earth.

I'm not the one scaremongering about something that isn't even true.

"i hate the way the fear of terrorism is being used as a form of social control by government"

I totally agree with that

Also am on side of protestors on the climate change issues. Additionally, if they bring in a third runway that will put an end to alternation and the two flight paths will both operate 24/7 making living under them unbearable.

I also think T5 is very wrong, it is mainly there to provide retailers with bored transit passengers. Why should we all have to suffer for their bottom lines?

Oh look. I haven't had a good punch up with CD in ages. This could be fun.

You could move to Winchester, CD?

Doesn't help the people under the flight path though does it?

news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30400-1276901,00.html

I think people are getting pretty fed up with the taxes in this country. So I don't think imposing more tax on flights (which by the way are already pretty heavily taxed) will win anyone many votes.

But, what other option is there? Add more runways to another airport? Build a new airport?

It seems better to have one major airport which will concentrate the flight in one place rather than haveing more flight paths in more places.

the Tories have proposed an extra tax on flying

eleusis, my family rely on oil exploration and production for our income and we meet regularly with representatives from oil producing nations. I'm the SAHM department so would have to check with those more knowledgable than me for links, if they have the time to supply them. (They are busy trying to make sure we don't run out of oil today.)

You are fantastically right about that nice Mr. Putin though. I notice Russia and Canada are already squaring up over the Artic. (leaving aside the ethical issues of oil production there of course). One of Putin's mates said recently, 'We can do what we like, the West will still buy our oil' or words to that effect.

We live in an arable farming area and dh's mates are going to workshops on growing biofuels. Where will the food be grown?

eleusis, I take it you don't live in W London?

It's not just the area around Heathrow that is affected. It's a huge path across West London - I notice it particularly when I'm in Kew or Sheen which are several miles away.

I think flight paths should be spread more across the country. W London is at capacity.

And whilst I agree that Heathrow is a major employer, I don't think that warrants the exceptions that are made for it. BAA is getting all it deserves in the current furore - and I really don't agree with banning the protestors. I don't necessarily understand all their points on climate change - it's a complicated topic. But protesting against a major corporation which seems to be allowed to get away with appalling customer service and which seems to have the government bow to its every whim seems like a good thing to me.

Thing is, it's just such a stupid approach - just tax people out of their cars, planes, etc. and that will solve the problem and they'll all comply like good little sheep.

Force them out, penalise them for trying to make a living without giving them a viable alternative for transport.

No stick for employers who insist on 9to5 and don't offer flexible working, telecommuting, staggered start/end times, etc.

No extra investment or subsidy for public transport like trains and coaches.

And we're supposed to buy that as the best a government can come up with?

I'm for the protesters - we can't keep having £1.99 flights to Malaga or wherever and not pay the consequences (environmental and travelling conditions) of making air travel cheaper than ever before.
Personally I wouldn't travel though Heathrow even if you paid me - I'd rather use Gatwick, Stansted or Luton which are equally convenient for getting into London if that is your thang. I think Luton is rather under-rated personally but it suits me fine.... unless there is a traffic jam on the M1 .