Here we go again - Pakistan condemns Salman Rushdie's knighthood

[edam]

Just feel exasperated. A. none of their damn business who we give knighthoods to (not that I'm in favour of knighthoods or indeed Salman bloody Rushdie) and B. why can't these extremists understand that free speech is as important to western liberal democracies as respect for the Prophet is to them?

Oh, and C. why did the presenter on Radio Four not ask the Pakistani big wig they were interviewing whether he had ever read the damn book? Also failed to ask the British muslim peer who was attacking the knighthood the same question.

[grumpy emoticon]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6763119.stm

Well I agree accepting a knighthood and wanting everyone to call you sir is rather creepy and repellent, tbh. I really respect people like David Bowie and Alan Bennet who have refused to accept knighthoods. Nice to see your idols behaving as you would expect

I want one!!

Ok can someone please tell me in Laymans terms what Salman Rushdie did to get a nighthood. (I only know of him because he wrote a book and loads of muslims wanted to kill him)?

knighthood even.

yes well I think we are all wondering about that UCM.

I thought perhaps he had built a museum for the people for free or discovered a new mascara......or something?

I think Rushdie was awarded it for services to literature but as I am not a literary expert, I cannot fathom out if it is deserved.

Has Terry Pratchett got one? What about Dame JK Rowling? I have not read any of Pratchett or Rowlings' books but millions have derived great pleasure from them and imo, that is what should be rewarded. But what do I know!

The honours system is so anachronistic that it really is irrelevant in the 21st Century, imo. I'm currently reading the "Rights of Man" by Thomas Paine and he rails against the corruption that ensues from it all and that was in 1791!

"IMO she's as guilty of intolerance and hatred as those she accuses of intolerance and hatred. That film wasn't about revealing hidden truths, it was about provocation."

So, she's asking to be murdered? Just like all those girls who are just begging to be raped, eh?
You are free speech as a crime on a par with murder. Sounds like defending murderers to me, I'm afraid. "

And I say that where exactly? Did I say anywhere she deserves to be murdered or that the people she opposes do? NO.

But her calling ALL muslims evil, women beating criminals etc is as bad as her muslim equivalent saying its ok to beat women because they're chattels. And fwiw she acknowledges that it was provocation as did the guy who died because of it. I'm not saying ANYWHERE that he deserved to die or that she does if you actually read my posts, but you can't say its free speech and insults for the west but you lot just sit quietly and take the insult. And if you don't we're going to focus on the 2-3 extremist leaders rather than on the mass population.

I agree that death threats is no way to get a message across. And said that in my initial post.

No-one is saying that when someone insults you, you just have to sit quietly and take it.

But you're not allowed to threaten people with violence in response. Big difference.

What is wrong with provoking a debate though? Like Xenia said, if you are secure in your faith, why go apolectic with rage when someone voices an opinion that you don't like?

Look at the mudslinging that Catholics, CofE members etc have to contend with but we don't see screeching hordes with contorted faces burning effigies and chanting death threats. Also, people who leave these churches do so without endangering their lives. In Islam and in many Muslim countries, apostasy is punishable by death.

Muslim ideology and rhetoric is steeped in mediaeval dogma and imo, that is what is fueling the so called clash with the Western world.

What I don't understand though is why so many Muslim immigrants and asylum seekers first port of call is to the the West and not one of the 50 muslim countries scattered around the globe? Why do they insist on contaminating themselves with the immoral infidel?

This is the thing. I hope people in the UK would be prepared to die so those whose views we do not agree with have the right to express them even if those views are absolutely repellant. Free speech is so important even when it's views I don't agree with, particularly then.

We should be allowed to be as non PC as South Park and worse and if extremists in any religion cannot handle that then that says a lot about them. if you have certainty in your belief you love itto be challenged. Nothing I think jesus liked more than debates in the Temple and I'm sure the Prophet Mohammed would love a good argument or if when it's a bad argument people know just to ignore it just like you do with squabbling children. Huge encouragement to the anti Muslim cause every time the extremists play into the hands of Governments.

We need many many more British Muslims ideally women, successful clever women who will be listened to condemning extremism and conservatism which is nothing to do with the views of most Muslims.

What did Rushdie do to deserve a kernigethood? Well... services to literature as speedymama said. He is a great writer - I beleive he was one of the earliest and most succesful of the exponenents of magic realism in the novel. He was also seen as one of the writers of the non-English English-speaking world. Ironically he often writes as a Muslim voice too - which is why presumably he caused so much upset. A Christian saying it wouldn't have done so much damage.

As for RK Rowling she may be a popular writer but personally I would happily shoot Harry P off his fri*ging Dyson 9000 or whatever it's called with a heat-seeking missile. Just call me Lady Voldemort .....but I may have a warped viewpoint as I'm reading it to DS for the 10th time....

If you say someone provoked their own murder because they said something critical about a religion, then yes, I think you are excusing and defending murderers, I really do.
What is the matter with these people?

I get very worried when religious people demand that I follow the precepts of their religion.

When the cartoon issue first kicked off one MNetter felt that she had a right to demand that no-one draw an immage of Muhammed. Because it was an offence under her religion.

One thing to demand religious freedome, quite another to demand that others follow the dectates of a faith.

Many Muslim say that they want to live in the West because of the freedoms it affords them to follow their religion unfettered by government interference. How can some of them then turn round and expect non observers to adhere to their dictats just because it is what they believe in?

I remember that posting too MB about the cartoons.

Ormrian, I am proud to say that I have never read any books by JK Rowling (or seen any of the films) and with any luck, by the time my DTS discover them, they can read them themselves.

Agreed, MB.
I'm happy for people to protest something, that's what free speech is all about - but there is no reason to expect special treatment over the things that offend you - be they religiously based or otherwise. And there certainly isn't any place for excusing those who threaten murder because of their 'offense'

Yes, we should respect each other as human beings, but there is no absolute that means we have to respect each others ideas.

When you attack the religious ideas of a person, however cherished they may be, you are just attacking ideas.
When you make threats of murder because you dislike their ideas, you are attacking the person, and that's just not happening.

If you look on Amazaon, his books are highly rated by readers. Shalimar the Clown gets 5 stars out of 5!

When you attack the religious ideas of a person, however cherished they may be, you are just attacking ideas.
When you make threats of murder because you dislike their ideas, you are attacking the person, and that's just not happening.

Well said Suebaroo.

I remember reading somewhere that the Pilgrim Fathers left for the New World not because of religious intolerance, but because they weren't allowed to be as intolerant as they wanted to! Personally I think religion goes wrong when it stops being a personal spirituality and starts being a series of competing rule books.

I heard an interesting news report on radio 4 a couple of days ago about the fate of women in Afghanistan since the fall of Taleban ( not that it has fallen it seems to me). They have women in their parliament now and one woman representative dared to say that some of her male colleagues who were ex war lords and killers should be held accountable for their past crimes ( these men were ex-Mujehadeen). She was immediately thrown out of the building and various male colleagues have pronounced a death sentence on her, also they said she 'deserved to be raped' which says a great deal about the male view of sex and gender issues in Afghanistan. She is now moving from safe house to safe house with a group of bodyguards but it is only a matter of time before she is killed really.

( ducks and runs...)

This would not happen in the UK. And what about all the so called honour killings which take place all over the Muslim world? there was a conviction at the Old Bailey just last week. These people are animals - don't tell me they have done it in the name of religion because that insults and diminishes religion. They are animals. I have no time for Rushdie as a writer but if he chooses to criticise the Muslim religion then that's fine by me. And it should be fine by Muslims too . Pronouncing death sentences and burning effigies and flags, rioting and general chaos and fatwas every time you hear something you don't like is more stupid and reactionary than anything I can think of.

I also agree with Xenia. If our western ways are so repellant and decadent, what are some people doing here at all?

oops that ducks and runs should be at the end of the posting.

I find it almost funny that Iran issued a fatwa concerning Salman Rushdie, yet their human rights record is abysmal and they still ( in Iran) stone women to death and torture prisoners routinely. Who's fooling who?

Honour killing are not a Moslem only issue.
They occur amongst Hindus in India and Britain, and as I recall Catholic Italy still has laws that make these very close to legal, and certainly not a major crime.

I grew up amongst British blokes, and as teenagers a lot of them were seriously disposed towards violence to their sisters boyfriends.

This shit occurs wherever a religion gives people an excuse to behave badly. Islam is far from unique.

Rushdie was nowhere near the first writer to use magical realism, what about Gabriel Garcia Marquez or Jorge Luis Borges? Blimey, every writer in Latin America was a magical realist while Rushdie was still in nappies. Practically.

Also, whenever anyone says anything under their own name about Islam they are really scared. What does that say about the religion? It's not good.