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"Class divide hits learning by age of 3 " says a report

62 replies

mylittleimps · 11/06/2007 23:23

very sorry if there is already a thread couldn't see one though

www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2100032,00.html

do you agree? i realy don't know if it's helpful to label children at this age (perhaps it's the labelling that decides the future result, if johnny is only expected to do x he will only achieve x type mentality i.e. you get what you expect out of people)

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SueW · 11/06/2007 23:34

It's not really news, tbh.

A woman who was involved in doing the research, I think, was speaking about it on Radio 4 this morning and said that the children were now nearly 7yo and it hadn't yet been able to evaluate what effect things like Sure Start may have had.

Another slow news day.... Or has it really taken them 2-4 years to pull together their results?

OldieMum · 11/06/2007 23:39

The Millennium Cohort study is based on a very large sample of children. It does take a long time to pull together this kind of research and make sure the findings are robust. Sure Start would not have been operating at a sufficent scale in 2003/4 to have had measurable effect on the sample.

It is news, because earlier findings have been about older children, not three year-olds. What it does suggest is that there is a great need for Sure Start-type programmes and that they need to be large-scale and properly funded.

Oblomov · 11/06/2007 23:47

I find this impossible to believe. Ds is 3.4 I have mat amny 3 yr olds , from both poorer and richer families, less and more educated, less and more childcare than others - and they are all not dissimilar. not 10 months difference. They would only be saying a few incomprehensible words.
I just can't accept this.

bookwormmum · 11/06/2007 23:52

I would say it makes a lot of sense. Nurture has as much to answer for as nature in helping children learn. Children aren't going to learn everything by osmosis - they'll need some help along the way.

SueW · 11/06/2007 23:54

That's interesting Oldiemum.

The woman on the news this morning was very unimpressive. She made it sound like no big deal/old news. Perhaps she was fed up of being interviewed about it!

bookwormmum · 11/06/2007 23:55

An easy example to find is reading with children in schools - you can tell the children who've not even taken the books out of their bags once you get home and the ones who've worn the print off the ketchup bottle at breakfast. Children that can read but don't love it aren't a problem - it's the ones who are not encouraged to read in the first place iyswim. They need more support than the child reading Harry Potter aged 3.

mm22bys · 12/06/2007 07:24

I think there is some truth to it, but I think you do also have to take it with a grain of salt.

They said that children from ethnic minorities may only be behind because they don't have the opportunity to speak English at home, but do catch up after they start school.

It's very true in our area where there is a big non-English community. The OFSTED reports for the local schools nearly all say that on entry the average level of attainment is well below the national average.

I think this has implications for the kids who CAN already speak English....

The good news is that according to the OFSTED reports the kids to make pretty fast progress.

Judy1234 · 12/06/2007 19:55

AH, yes, I just read this from the Times.

" David Aaronovitch

Last summer I went to the prize-giving at a school in the country. Very few of the absurdly tall and elegant teenagers receiving heavy books and shiny plaques were being cited for just one quality. Some had, it seemed, run for their counties, played the oboe to concert level, achieved field marshal rank in the school cadets and saved several African villages from drought. And they were so polite.

That their ascent up the ladder of achievement had started early was obvious from watching their happy parents, as they sipped wine on the lawn afterwards. The parents had, many of them, done most of the things that they could and been all the things that they had to be, in order to reach this point on this warm day, their children poised balletically for flight into the adult world.

But what were these things? Yesterday the University of London?s Centre for Longitudinal Studies (based at the Institute of Education) published its outline findings into the attainment of a cohort of 15,500 children born between 2000 and 2002. The study found that by the time that the kids were three years old the offspring of graduate parents were ten months ahead of children from relatively unqualified parents in vocabulary, and a year ahead in their comprehension of sizes, shapes, colours, letters and numbers. And while this may be an expected advantage, it is still a hell of a gap to have opened up at such a young age.

Gender made a difference, the girls being on average three months ahead of the boys (which doesn?t matter, because by the time you grow up and become, say, a newspaper columnist, the gap has all but closed, apparently). But for the rest, there could only be speculation as to exactly why such a gulf had opened up. The Guardian credited wealth and class as being behind the figures. Heather Joshi, of the institute, cautiously suggested that there was a connection with poverty or family income. In the days of Dr Eysenck we would doubtless have had the link made between IQ and genetics.
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There were some intriguing possible clues in the way in which different groups measured up.

Children from Bangladeshi families were a year behind white children in tests measuring ?school readiness?; West Indian and African children were six times more likely than whites to be behind. But Scottish children were two months ahead of the UK average in ?school readiness?. Professor Joshi provisionally accounted for some of this by suggesting that some immigrant households had mothers who couldn?t go to work, and the children therefore missed out on the benefits of childminders and nurseries.

But why would money buy a two-year-old an understanding of shapes and colours? Why would a nursery give the same child an expanded word-hoard? If we were to take £10,000 a year from the wealthy and simply give it to the families of the most ?backward? of these children, would we expect a dramatic change in their vocabularies at 3?

Also yesterday we discovered that, notwithstanding the superior school readiness of the Scots kids, their country was bottom of the Federation of Small Businesses? annual index of wealth, comparing ten similar-sized countries in terms of economic performance and lifestyle. This position, it turned out, was almost entirely due to the poor health suffered by the average Scot.

Again: why? Why do Scots die when Sassenachs live? On the Today programme the writer and musician Pat Kane suggested that this was partly due to the ?legacy of early industrialisation?and partly Scottish depression caused by not running their own separate country. Give the people independence, he seemed to be suggesting, and watch the heart patients throw away their stents and power-walk.

This was a fun idea. But also yesterday, the Institute of Education published a childhood obesity study using the same cohort. This showed that one quarter of three-year-olds were overweight, but that there were dramatic variations between ethnic groups. Nine per cent of Indian children were overweight, compared with a quarter of whites and a third of African and Caribbean children. The Scots did better than the Welsh.

Why would Indians be less depressed about having a say in society than whites? Or does Scottish nationalism somehow unconsciously ape the cultural conditions of Hinduism?

The reason why some children do far better than others is obvious from the walk home from school. It was clear to me the moment one parent in my daughter?s class complained that her six-year-old son, to whom she gave Coca-Cola just before he arrived in school, was in no condition to do the boring reading that the school expected them to accomplish together in the evenings. Boys play football, she announced.

Babies need to be talked to, toddlers need to be read to, children need to be considered. Kids need to be fed decent food. Except in instances of dire poverty, money itself is rarely the explanation as to why these things don?t happen. Perhaps one reason for the growing advantage of the middle classes is not that they are richer, but that they assimilate better all the dire warnings about face-time, junk food and smoking. None of it is a mystery, Pat ? watch the Scottish mortality statistics improve as a consequence of the year-old smoking ban.

So it?s about culture. Last weekend I was forced by my ten-year-old to see a witless Hollywood comedy about a black journalist who moves his step-family to the countryside. Had the film been about a white middle-class family then I think it unlikely that the 12-year-old son would have been depicted eating Pop-Tarts for breakfast, or that the father?s useless and macho attempts at parenting would have been so sympathetically portrayed. ?This,? the film seemed to be suggesting, ?is how we do it.? And a bad, bad way it was.

There are too many families who don?t have books in the house, who don?t limit TV watching, who don?t set boundaries, who don't set their children an example. There are too many families who don?t or can?t care that much about their very young children. Maybe they don?t care because they weren?t cared about. Perhaps such cultural poverty is as much a cause of actual poverty as a consequence.

This illustrates the need for early intervention, which is quite another column. But, crudely, the message of these studies is that we should now pay the Scots to bring up our children, but let the Indians feed them. "

Anna8888 · 12/06/2007 20:08

Not really news IMO. Of course it's about culture and opportunities for development, not just money. Which is why leaving children all day to be babysat by unqualified immigrants, like lots of parents here in Paris do, is a big mistake.

Judy1234 · 12/06/2007 20:59

I was interested in a lot of his comments. He said "The Guardian credited wealth and class as being behind the figures. Heather Joshi, of the institute, cautiously suggested that there was a connection with poverty or family income. In the days of Dr Eysenck we would doubtless have had the link made between IQ and genetics. "

I think a lot of his reasons are good ones. Presumably the children of graduates are probably born with a higher IQ too.

mylittleimps · 12/06/2007 21:05

i quite like the Times article. Xenia, as you posted it do you agree with it - that interests me...

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mylittleimps · 12/06/2007 21:06

ahh you'd posted whilst i was reading your earlier post.

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yesmynameisigglepiggle · 12/06/2007 21:23

I am poor, working class,degree educated, intelligent. I take talk of class with a pinch of salt, the boundaries are so blurred nowadays. My Ds's are all very advanced and bright, one of them well ahead of his peers in most areas. It's just how he is but with added encouragement.

I get really angry though. People can seem so smug. What about people who haven't had opportunities or education? Parents who are struggling daily to get through the day but doing their absolute best? I wonder how news stories like this make them feel.

Judy1234 · 12/06/2007 21:37

I was interested in why only 9% of Indian children were obese actually. 18% of my borough is hindu and the children aren't fat. A lot of the middle aged are and there's a genetic tendency to be more likely to get diabetes type II too but the children aren't fat. Better diet? Better family meals?

Children of graduates a year ahead by the age of 3 or whatever is a huge gap and then those children may be educated with those a year behind. How useful is that to be pulled back and back by others or made to tread water? No wonder the middleclass graduates pay by fees or houseprice to educate their year ahead children apart from others.

mylittleimps · 12/06/2007 21:59

i think that's why i quite liked the one from the Times - I've noticed so many household's don't have books (and i am including relatively better off ones as well as poorer ones).

i do think the one thing the articles fail to recognise is that not all bright people end up with a host of qualifications and door openings, but i don't believe these people that are bright but with little/no qualifications and are on or around the poverty line will be offended or feel terrible about these articles because i'm guessing their children will have good vocab and have access to books and everything else needed to stimulate their development including diet - whatever their cultural background.

Why? because access to books doesn't need to be costly and stimulating a child doesn't need to be costly? feeding a child a non-junk diet is actually cheaper and healthier than a processed junk diet and they will do/know this instinctively.

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mylittleimps · 12/06/2007 22:13

xenia, this is similiar to a recent thread on does wealth mean more intelligence don't you think? and i just believe wealth/social status gives more opporunity and importantly easier opportunity to what is needed. your address certainly reflects how some people (SOME teachers/police) look at you.

if i thought a school would disadvantage my child's learning capabilities (for what ever reason) i would move him/not choose that school but i don't agree with labelling/pigeon hole young children, perhaps that's hypocritical but that's the way i feel.

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Blu · 12/06/2007 22:42

Hmmmm.
Perhaps the 3 year-olds of non-graduates ,and under-priveliged backgrounds, are at the perfectly healthy, normal level for children, and the others have been 'accelarated' - and that there isn't actually a problem with the ones who are 'behind'.

"The good news is that according to the OFSTED reports the kids to make pretty fast progress. " said a poster below concerned about ESOL speakers in the Reception intake in 'her' school. And that bears out my observation exactly. Having done 100's of projects in schools in Tower Hamlets, and now lots of work with teenage recent refugees, i would say that , yes, they work extremely hard, are very keen to do well, and very receptive to the authority of the education system.

The real test will come in a couple of years time: has education enabled them to attain the same levels?

I was reading a thread earlier about how to get a child into a private prep school (at 6) and one poster was adamant that after one year's schooloing, the child would have to be 'exceptionally bright' to reach the standard of the Prep school students - or that it would be very hard work - and the advice seemed to be that a 6 year old would have to have finished key Stage 1 by the end of y 1 in order to stand a chance.

When did it all get like this?

i am the child of graduate parents, and I went to a Private school at primary age. No one attempted to teach me reading or maths before I set foot in school at 5. We progressed at exactly the same rate i see my DS progressing in a Lambeth state primary. And it was a v academic, high reputation school, not Miss Prim's Academy On The Green, but I just don't remember all this panic about children's achievement aged 3! The year before O levels (I am old!!) yes, but never before 11.

Scandanavian children aren't learning any of this stuff - and they have 'caught up' by graduate standards. The big test is whether children from different backgrounds can benefit equally from education, and fulfill their potential to the same degree, irrespective of circumstances. It mayt be that these big diffferences at 3 are ironed out by 7.

And DS is part of this study.

I nearly pulled him out at the testing at 3 because i was so outraged by the clumpy way they did it. they used the same test for 3 year olds as for children up to 7 - and said that they just expected diffferent leves of 'pass' at the different ages. DS was really really discouraged by it, because there was so little he could do 9and she let slip that he had got further with it than any other 3 year old she had tested).
She showed him a page of shapes and asked him to point to cube, pyramid, etc (all 3 dimensional shapes) which he did, and then 'cylinder'. he was baffled and shook his head. he looked so downcast that she took pity and said 'there, that one is the cylinder'. He looked outraged and said 'that's a tube'. But he didn't get a point.

Judy1234 · 13/06/2007 08:07

My sister and I were talking about this at the weekend. Our recollection had been that our mother hot housed us to an extent. She was a teacher. But reading her diary of our under 5 years at the weekend actually it wasn't so. We had remembered the french word labels around the house and she used to talk about how we could all read before we went to school at 4/5 but the diary shows her writing about my being able to recognise 5 letters from the alphabet when I was 4 and yet my and my sister's children in their mornings nursery schools learned all the letters and to write them before they started school at rising 5. In fact my sister said we were even more advanced by children at school too which we were. So perhaps one just takes the standard of the day whether it's medieval rich people's children at 4 and 5 reading latin and Greek, as some did or every one starst at 7 in Sweden or whatever and it is your comparison with your peers that matters as in the real world it's your peers you'll be competing against.

So if clever graduate parents get their children ahead - I think we are told most private schools are at least a year ahead of state schools. One of my sons is about 4 years ahead on reading, but that's certainly nothing to do with any efforts of mine, just his genes plus interests.

The Telegraph article a few weeks ago mentioned a theory that now we have fairly good abilities to rise be clever and poor and rise that those at the bottom are those that should be because they aren't clever and have problems and their children who are there are rightly there because there is equality of opportunity and they are where they are because of Eq of oppo not because there is no equality of opportunity. In other words as always some people will be born with IQ of 90 etc and then find school difficult. As how we are born is important as well as our family presumably everyone who knows children are born different from each other accepts that you cannot even that out.

Anna8888 · 13/06/2007 08:31

Blu - but there is no absolute standard for three year olds, only a relative standard. And the benchmark that holds for all of us in a globalised economy is what the most intelligent children are able to attain aged 3 (or at whatever age we choose to hold the test).

I think it's both very interesting and rather worrying that such huge gaps appear in achievement so early on in life. But it doesn't surprise me one little bit.

I shall go back to reading to my daughter (2.7) before taking her to the Jardin du Luxembourg playground where she just loves the climbing frames for the over 7s...

Cammelia · 13/06/2007 08:34

Anna8888 can I just hijack a minute to ask you a quick qeustion? You say lower down you live in Paris - are your children at school there?

Anna8888 · 13/06/2007 08:36

Cammelia - yes. My stepsons are at French school in Neuilly-sur-Seine, and my daughter is about to start école maternelle at the Ecole Active Bilingue in September. How can I help?

SSSandy2 · 13/06/2007 08:40

In Germany we are often told that research shows the single most important factor in deciding a dc's academic achievement will be the level of education attained by the mother.

Judy1234 · 13/06/2007 08:43

I've read that oto although that's only in very sexist countries like Germany where women are encourages to stay at home as housewives. In a lot of English households women work as long if not longer hours than their husbands and fathers are as much an influence as mothers and we have 250,000 house husbands who presumably don't like to hear that comment.

Anna8888 · 13/06/2007 08:44

SSSandy2 - same here in France, they believe that the single greatest influence on a child's level of educational attainment is the mother, or primary caregiver's level of attainment.

Which is why I am always surprised that so many educated French women choose such direly undereducated childcarers and leave them together for so many hours a day. There is very little in the way of activities for toddlers here to create additional stimulation.

Cammelia · 13/06/2007 08:58

Oh Anna, thanks. I was just wondering what the schools for English speaking children are like in Paris. Are they all private, I ahve heard of the British School in Paris for example.