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TA Tribunal over refusal to listen to Harry Potter read.

104 replies

Blu · 09/06/2007 22:46

here
Summary: a TA protested that she did not want to hear a child read a Harry Potter book ('an abomination') - school unsympathetic - she resigned and went to tribunal over religious principles)

She has actually failed to win her tribunal, as reported today.

I am relieved that she did not win - it would have set a disheartening precedent - about what fiction is, that simply hearing someone reading fiction is a religious travesty (it isn't as if she was being asked to take part in anything - simply listen to a children reading), etc etc.

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nannynick · 09/06/2007 23:39

Agree... it's the child who chooses the book, not the TA. The TA is there to help the child read, not pass judgement on what they read.

I don't like the Biff, Chip, Kipper, Floppy books much, but I still help children read them... been doing it too long, that the books are just boring to me, I know the stories.

Aloha · 09/06/2007 23:41

She sounds a loon, and I'd be pleased if she wasn't anywhere near my childrens' school! A TA who hates books...hmmm...

cornsilk · 09/06/2007 23:44

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gess · 09/06/2007 23:44

gosh yes, extremism (in anything) best left out of the classroom.

katelyle · 09/06/2007 23:51

There are several children in my dc's school who are not allowed to listen to any story that involves witches( including Room on the broom and Winnie the Witch) They are also not allowed to sing Christmas carols or hunt Easter Eggs among other things. I try so hard to be tolerant, but I really find this hard. They ar Jehovas Witnesses -and I would love it if someboday exlained it to me - I hate not being able to be tolerant!

Blu · 10/06/2007 00:08

Yes, imagine, someone in an educational position who cannot countenance Macbeth, Faust, the Queen Mab speech in R&J perhaps...I hope she will not get another job in a school unless she changes her views.

Hope she doesn't wash up down the road at DS's school - it's not far away!

Durand is a very highly regarded lambeth primary!

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expatinscotland · 10/06/2007 00:09

She needs to get over herself.

UCM · 10/06/2007 00:14

Probably had a bad attendance record and attitude, so decided to sue the school, what a load of bollox.

It's never one thing IMO>

DominiConnor · 10/06/2007 10:43

In the USA, it's a bigger problem, where not only magic books have been banned, but mainstream SciFi books have been got at by Christians.
We already have state schools in Britain where Creationism is taught over evolution. Some schools have bottled out of teaching evolution to children with Moslem parents because it might upset them.

MaloryTowers · 10/06/2007 10:44

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DominiConnor · 10/06/2007 11:51

I can't see anyone interviewing a TA and saying "do you have aggressively stupid religious beliefs ?", indeed that's buying into a world of legal trouble, and even though I'm not a fan of religious influence on education, I wouldn't want to see such filtering.

But the legal climate is changing. Recall how Christian churches have de facto immunity from the criminal law, have explicit immunity from the laws on sex and race discrimination, and are hopeful of being able to ban gays from Christian controlled, stated funded resources.

The big issue here that I fear is not some dippy sacked evangelical. But, what about the case where the school didn't want the hassle ? Or when no report was made ? A kid is quite likely to take this bullying without any parent knowing.
Also, of course many head teachers are themselves Christian, and would just put the TA on the head and tell them to be a bit more discreet in future.

wheresthehamster · 10/06/2007 12:06

She could easily have been more discreet. Just let it go this time but mention to the teacher afterwards that she would prefer not to have to read a book that is against her beliefs and if the child wanted to read to her again would it be ok if they chose another book? She certainly shouldn't have said anything to the child.

Sounds like there were other issues.

DominiConnor · 10/06/2007 18:18

Ok, so what's the next step then ?
Harry Potter is hardly the only kids book with witchcraft is it ? What about the Hobbit, and (Ironically) The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe ? Lots of witchcraft...
What about books with animals in ?
Are we to allow teachers to block them as well ?

At least half DSs books on "nature" refer to evolution. All his books with dinosaurs use time scales that are unacceptable to many evangelicals and Moslems, and even a few Jews.

Also, you'd allow them to ban books on the Ancient Egyptians (they are too ancient). The Stone age is era non grata, as are descriptions of planets and stars.
Geology is "unacceptable" as well.

History ain't kind to Christians and Moslems, and to be fair, they haven't been kind to it.
Want evangelicals and other religious loonies banning pretty much everything except...
Actually, I can't think of any kids book past "Look at the dog. The dog is happy" That wouldn't offend some religion.
Then whilst writing that I realised that to many Moslems dogs are extremely dirty and offensive animals.
Anything with people eating anything, just ain't gonna work. Women in books are a problem, best do away with them, lest a drawing of a woman who has the temerity to show her arms upsets some religion.
Doctors and nurses are inimical to several sects who don't like treatments varying from blood transfers to any treatment of any kind.

Greensleeves · 10/06/2007 18:21

PMSL at "do you have aggressively stupid religious beliefs?" I may well consider asking ds's future teachers that question before he starts, just to get everything out in the open

Blandmum · 10/06/2007 18:23

i once 'lost' a child from my class to be home educated. In part this was due to his parents refusal to let him learn about religions other than Christianity and read Harry Potter.

DominiConnor · 10/06/2007 18:25

As it happens, I know for a fact that one of DSs teachers has aggressively stupid beliefs. He was my RE teacher many moons ago, and I still have the scar on my left hand.

DominiConnor · 10/06/2007 18:30

MB points out a real problem. When I was on the academic board at Uni, I asked why in one of our halls of residence we had alternating male and female floors. Was a problem because of the ratio of male/female students.

"some countries..." came the reply.
Apparently if you don't have silly shit like this, then Moslems won't let their daughters come, and so it's a (far) lesser evil.

I fear this fight is coming to British schools. Many religious people would rather their kids got no real education at all, than they were exposed to any dangerous thoughts.

I personally don't have much time for Potter, but don't kids yourself it will stop there.
Biology teachers have started to skip evolution in schools with many Moslems in it.

fuzzywuzzy · 10/06/2007 19:31

DC which schools are skipping evolution classes because moslems object??
I learnt evolution, I'm muslim haven't been particularly scarred by the experience either.

I'd also like to point out that those who follow both the old and new testaments dont believe they evolved from monkeys either those who follow the old testament dont particularly believe in the big bang theory either(from what I@ve been told).
The evolution thing is not just a moslem thing, and I've not come across any hysterical moslem parents objecting to evolution lessons, if there were you bet they'd have made headline news in all the national papers.....

KerryMum · 10/06/2007 19:32

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DominiConnor · 10/06/2007 21:13

I'm not for one moment saying that evolution contradicts Islam, or indeed Christianity.

Creationism necessarily implies an incompetent, deceitful God, and this in my opinion is hardly consistent with either faith.
It does of course imply stupid deceitful followers, who resort to moronic lies to try and stop kids asking awkward questions.

There is nothing wrong with not believing in the big bang, evolution or the law of conservation of angular momentum.
It's why you don't believe something that matters.
However Christian and Moslem evolution deniers seem to differ in causes. From what I hear, some young Moslems seek to express their identity by rejecting bits of "western" culture. They do this loudly, and teachers don't want the fight.

Although evolution is like most modern science the inception of white men, again like most modern science it has clear roots in Arab/Moslem scholarship. Long before Darwin, Arabs had clear ideas that clearly implied some form of natural selection, and had worked out the Earth was very old and round. Look up "firmament" to get the official Christian view of the Earth.

But that argument cuts no ice, Brits aren 't taught about Arabs much, maybe they should but would probably get shot at by Zionists and Christians. Once you start letting religion into your schools, there's no easy way out.

It's a sad local phenomenon, due largely to the way Brits pander to superstition, rather than confront it.

Blu · 10/06/2007 21:23

Yes, but at tribunal, this woman's case was thrown out...so take some comfort.

Although I find the refusal to study and consider any theory or proposal anti-intellectual and reductive, and not acceptable in an educational setting, the point, for me, about this HP case was that it was about pure fiction. No-one - not even those who define themselves as practising witches, actually believes in Hogwarts, muggles, Woldermort etc etc do they? It is a story loosely hung on a fictional, fantasy idea of wizards. If (in this country) people who accept jobs at McD are expected to handle beef, sandwich makers in Greggs make ham sandwiches, nurses assist with terminations, and teachers in state schools are required to teach the national Curriculum, you would think that 'listening to pure fiction' should be fair and squarely accepted in a TAs job. I wouldn't have any patience with the 'discreet' appraoch either.

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DominiConnor · 10/06/2007 21:29

As I recall medics can opt out of terminations ?

Califrau · 10/06/2007 21:34

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Blu · 10/06/2007 21:37

DC can they? In this country?

But in any case, terminations, like sleeping arrangements in halls of residence, involve RL people in RL situations, not passively listening to fictional narratives about non-RL people.

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EricL · 10/06/2007 23:41

How many kids stories are about witches, fairies, casting spells, magic, etc.?
Doesn't the Bible itself have a lot of 'magic' in it where people with higher powers can do things that us mere mortals can't?

It's part of growing up and they all know it is just harmless fantasy.

Shame that these people make such a fuss over something that should just be a bit of fun for the kids.

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