40 years since the six day war. Any comments?

[donnie]

will the west make some kind of gesture towards the dispossessed Palestinians and resume payments to the Palestinian authority? or are we happy to let Israel continue their illegal occupation ?

fwiw, I have a little interest in the subject, and I don't disagree with many of donnie's points. I just get very frustrated that the Palestinians are given a free pass in their strange behaviour towards their own children.

I don't think any progress is going to made if, say, the funding was restored to the palestinian state and the territories restored if they carry on training their children to hate, that's all.

I think its interesting, I do think Donnies suggestions as to reparatins are pretty much waht I would like to see but I also acknowledge its very ahrd to get a full picture. My professor tries - but you can tell where his stance is. And its very ahrd to be pro-Israeli I think- there was an option to cover the issue last year at Uni (I opted out and did the contribution of Islam to culture and science ) but the only one who took an obvious pro-Israeli stance got a slating.

The real answer as far as I can see is its a no win. My sympathies lie with the Palestinians I think, but I've watched various programmes etc produced by each country, and have to say neitehr makes for edifying viewing as the hatred is so strong and amrked. And it can only get worse as far as I can see- I hate the wall for example, but then if my kids were at risk from a bomber as they caught the bus to school I probably wouldn't be adverse to the idea.

I think the main thing to be taken rfom the anniversary is to relaise that todays leaders, soldiers etc weren't participants in the war. These pele have grown and been raised in a different situation, where things just aren't so clear cut and where neither side has a clear view. Even what seems to be a clear moral right of the Palestinians to many poele has been tarnished by years of fear and fighting.

I also think that we should have learned by now that it has to be the Palestinians and Israelis who reach a settlement, nothing can be imposed. Thats not realistically going to happen until both sides demonstrate a little tolerance and understanding to their children, and allow some light into the hatred.

As soon as I read 'illegal occupation'; I decided to ignore this thread. You obviously have your mind made up on what's what and aren't REALLY interested in what others think.

donnie, why start the thread and then disappear?

It seems to me that you're an exponent of the basic problem. You will not hear another point of view, and you are not interested unless other people are as inflammatory as you.

To redress your pov, may I just quickly remind you that six million Jews were killed, by the West, only sixty years ago.

Is the West really the entity to resolve this problem?

I have a lot of interest in this subject but hesitated to jump in because it's such an emotive one on both sides. Donnie - you're clearly not open to discussion so you won't like my pov. So I'm not going to give it. But what I will say is that in my personal opinion, too many people in the UK are very happy to judge this situation by their own values and experiences, and never know the full story or the full picture on both sides. You need to know a lot more than what is going on right now to fully understand why the situation has developed as it has, and you need to know Israelis and Palestinians in Israel to have an understanding of why people behave as they do.

I am going to try to leave it at that!

no i do see donnies point, and understand the frustration.

i think peachy puts it all very well

the West's history of behaviour towards Jews is quite appalling, really. The holocaust was the pinacle of that but don't forget that Hilter didn't initially plan to kill the Jews, he wanted them deported. But no country would take them. In fact, most of the UK anti-immigration laws originate from an attempt to stop the "Jewish influx". Think "asylum seeker" and "Daily Mail". Thats how the Jews were perceived. (not saying deportation is ok but...the west was complicit in the holocaust imo, not least because they helped set the tone for the prior 1000 years)

(there may be a modern day lesson in this)

In that context-not just the holocaust, appalling as that was the desire for a safe homeland is understandable.

The problem is that is you look at ISRAELI behaviour, especially towards Palestinians, then it IS quite appalling. Following the 1947 UN partition, which was, IMO, a guilt thing since the west had been trying to limit jewish immigration there in the FIRST place during the years preceeding ww2, they were utterly, utterly vicious. And now, we have a situation where Palestinians go without water while Israelis have swimming pools. Israel is also heavily funded by the US.

The situation between Israel and Palestine is thus highly unbalanced, it is unsuprising that the Palestinians hate the Israelis. But also unsuprising that the Israelis hate the Palestinainas.

btw, its a bit santomonious of us to judge them for "teaching their children to hate" IMO. Our kids can generally go to school, and eat a well balanced diet, free of falling bombs and random gunfire.

Filly, I was talking in the context of a series of outside demands upon the two parties. Asking people to stop dressing their babies up in suicide-bomber belts seems pretty tame, really.

But actually, I think it's a problem that the Israelis and the Palestinians have to solve by themselves, rather than through a shopping list of demands from the outside world, really.
We have plenty in our own house to get in order first.

Agree with Donnie - have Palestinian friends and what they go through is unreal total humiliation and dispair.....

palestine/israel is our fault, both historically and more recently.

Israel recives massive donations from the US, not to mention arms and so on

fine for us to completly butt out, IMO. That would go a long way toward evening up the sides, as pretty much all Western funding is going to Israel. And there is a LOT of it.

Regardless, we live in a global society, we have to take responsbility for a mess we have helped to cause, and in which very large numbers of kids, pregnant women, etc are dying.

And WHY does the west arm israel? WHY?

Out of guilt over the holocaust?

No, not really

oiloiloiloiloiloiloil

its all £££££ at the end of the day

yes filly, I would agree with most of that.

In many ways I'm torn between the 'cleaning up the mess you made' argument, and the 'dispute between two countries that they need to settle mostly for themselves'

It just gets very frustrating when they won't meet with each other, but I can understand that from both their perspectives, really.

Sadly its not even as clear cut as just pounds.

The Jewish vote is enough to elect or unelect Presidents such as Bush. Therfore, they get their way- its how that system works.

I think filly makes some really sensible and thoughtful points. Sadly it's not as simple as just oil, and neither is it guilt over the Holocaust. Let's not forget that we had a hand in the whole mess way back in 1948 when we carved the place up.

"The Jewish vote is enough to elect or unelect Presidents such as Bush. Therefore, they get their way- its how that system works" - would like to know what you mean by that.

It was direct quopte from a lecture actuall;y- but the Jewish Zionist vote (I should emphasize not all Jewish people are Zionists) are numerous enough in number to make up the small difference in votes cast at thr last American election. Its not derogatory, and wasn't meant like that. Presidents and all politicians play to the minority groups, and by pleasing them secure votes.

doncha know, ruby, it is a great big zionist conspiracy....

maybe it the US administration wasn;t inherently corrupt and dependent on oil, the Dubya;s of this world would not be elected

just heard that line and derivatives of it trotted out many many times...

Hang on! I never said anything about conspiracy! I am fervently NOT anti Judaism!.

It's no diiferent than any other minority group- they hold votes. So it pays to address or appear to support issues that concern tham- Israel is one of these.

Its no different from bush's support of fundamental Christian issues, or indeed Cameron's attempts to appeal to 'middle england'.

But it does offer an explanation of why America appears to be pro-Israel.

Now, I could theoretically pop next door and ask the professor for references for his lecture, but I really don't think it was in any way intended to be anything than a simple statement of fact.

And it's not a blame on Israel either- I made my feeling clear on that my first post- its a mix of fear and intolerance on both sides that is contributing to the continuation of the middle east situation.

One of the things I don't like about Mnis that sometimes people want to read bogotry and intolerance where there is none, or derive a kick off from out of nowhere.

Yes the OP is inflamatory but nothing I have said is anything other than academics.

thank you for the clarification peachy

the line about the jewish vote is too reminiscent of many other things i have heard over the years , about the alleged zionist conspiracy...

so forgive the sensitivity...your phrase did come across badly to me

i can see that is not what you meant

thanks Peachy - have to say my initial thoughts on reading your post were the same as Lulu's and my antennae went up
i too don't like things just kicking off hence me asking for clarification

I admit i tend to forget that not everyone on MN knows me well enough, those who do probably realise I'm not anti-semetic, of course its a big community thee days and just coz I bump into peole elsewhere doesnt eman they've met me on here before. So I should rpobably explain my start point better I guess.

EWhich is a student of world religiosn / culture / philosophy

fair dos peachy

my comment would be that the palestinans live in a hell and ...and so to do the isrealis.. of their own making though..

it is tragic and almost helpless hopeless situation atm

It is a helpless and hopeless situation, and a very tragic one as it is an amazing country. My difficulty is that people in this country are very quick to judge based on their own values and our (very easy) way of life. We have never (at least not for 50 years) had to live with the direct threat of war every day on our doorstep. We do not know a friend, or a relative, or a friend of a friend or relative who has been killed in a conflict situation. All I can equate it with is the atmosphere in London after the bombs went off - the tension, the fear, the constant wailing of sirens, the suspicion of people standing next to you, the emptiness of the streets, the nervousness of the police that led to an innocent man being killed. Apologies to those of you who aren't Londoners, but for us who are it was a very scary time. But for us life was pretty much back to normal within weeks. Imagine living with that every single day and never having a prospect of it coming to an end. And I'm talking both sides here.

That's a generalisation though, many people in this country DO know what it is like. far too many in fact, especially once you look at immigrants- their stories can be beartbreaking. My friends fiance is from Iran and the things he has endured- . Other people have lost friends and family in Iraq, Afghanistan, as a result of terorism, or simply because they live abroad (a friend of a friend lost family in Lebanon not that long ago). I am fortunate to have avoided the experience personally, but we should remember the membership of MN is diverse.

I do agree that its hard to accurately understand the terrible nature of things from outside though, and impossible to imagine what its like for those who live there. I would repeat my earlier point however that the Israeli people who had control during the war period are not the same generation by and large that are experiencing the risks presented to their famillies, and other struggles. It seems to me that there are very many victims on both sides, neither of whom had anything to do with the genesis of the situation.

It's like when the people were moved out of Gaza- yes it was probably the right thing, but how could one not feel sad for some of the peole who were leaving, for example, loved ones bodies behind?

It's a tragic situation for everyone involved.

It's also one of those situations where the answer isn't clear. I have never met an academic who knew of one, anyway. I think a priority for the West has to be emergency assistance for those Palestinians who are in great need and suffering extreme poverty, and there's a moral and humanitarian requirement to offer support to anyone in that position. Beyond that, the West can only facillitate communication: everything else has to come from mutual communication between the parties.