Yet another article re: why mothers should return to work

[boogiewoogie]

Just snatching a couple of minutes during a coffee break, will come back. What do you think of this?

Well, you said "even up contribution", and the only contributions to family life you mentioned were housework, bringing up children and money work. So I was a bit stunned to hear that your family life might only be composed of those three things...

Seeing family and friends is fairly obvious. "Leisure" a bit vague as it can encompass myriad things. But I was thinking more of the intellectual aspect of family life, how people develop and learn from one another, become more creative, wiser, more imaginative as the years pass together...

Oops - stray apostrophe alert

Soapbox - I am not "gleeful" at all. I just think it is inappropriate for Xenia to be so scornful of all life models other than her own when her own contains such a failure. My partner wouldn't offer up his life model as an example to others, and I have lots of divorced friends who feel the same way. They wish (as my partner does) that their first marriage had been their only marriage.

Its not a failure, its just life. People get divorced, sick, die, unemployed. This is why its a good idea to take a fairly long-term view of the future which is exactly the point of this brilliant article.

Anna - it is your focus on this one aspect of Xenia's life which is bordering on the obsessive! Is one's who life achievements to be put aside because of one marriage failure? Is your DP's life achievements sullied by his divorce?

Oh no, because usefully when it comes to your DP's failures, they are swept aside because it was all his wife's fault. It would be laughable if it weren;t so sad!

If your DP was so bothered by his son's wellbeing, then perhaps he should have stuck around in his marriage and put his own happiness to one side, until his sons reached adult hood!

Now that would have been truely admirable!

Soapbox - you are being silly.

It is never a good idea to stay married "for the sake of the children". I'm sure you know that.

It's a good idea, however, to be committed to your relationship with your partner. That is precisely the opposite of what Xenia tells us all to do - don't trust, don't love, keep one foot out of the door. Very bad advice.

That has nothing to do with looking after one's finances, which everybody must do.

Oh- you meant the airy fairy stuff, did you Anna? Yes, we are all good at talking and bullshitting and fun, I think, though wisdom is not usually forthcoming from this necessarily. I have learned that if I wait till the washing machine breaks i might not have to clean the kitchen floor though.

"failure" eh? Nice.

I think Xenia comes across as loving her children very much, actually.

scummy - what you call the "airy fairy" stuff is what I am in my relationship for. It doesn't exist without that, and sex.

Housework and money work are just the very basics of existence as far as I am concerned, not special to one relationship.

Where on earth has Xenia ever said not to love or trust one's partner?

I am with my partner because I love him and find him very attractive and fantastic, yes. I agree it's fundamentally important. But that fact and experience doesn't pay the bills or clean the house or bring up our children or fulfil every aspect of our beings. It's a starting point.

Quite, soapbox.

Keep on being silly, that woman!

Soapbox - but it's the essence of what she says all the time.

But I suspect that, sadly for Xenia, she has never known a loving relationship with a partner.

And that would be a breathtakingly arrogant assumption, I would say.

i really like this article and thought she made some salient points - but i didn't post as i knew it would turn into this! It seems franky impossible to have any sort of reasoned, rational discussion (not ranting argument) about the working/stay at home mum issue

Anna - i think that is a pretty big and hurtful assumption to make about somebody!

Anna - how on earth can you make a leap of logic like that based on what Xenia has written on here?

Her marriage was a long one - I assume there was much love and happiness along the way.

You know marriages are not black and white things - they don't succeed or fail in nice 100% packages.

When you have had an 18 year long relationship with your DP then come back here and I might be more willing to give you the time of day! As it is, you are making yourself look like a fool!

What soapbox said.

Well, I read Xenia and I think - why on earth do you eternally bang on about every woman needing to have a huge career to be a proper person? And I can conlude that her adult life is so empty of feeling that work is the only way she can think of to fill her existence.

I can't stand that level of materialism, just can't stand it. Where are her FEELINGS for her family? Why does she equate babyhood with nappy changing? Why does she talk about "women giving men sex"? Etc etc

Soapbox - I had a long relationship in my teens and early twenties. He died (in a plane crash). Don't give me I don't know love.

wanting and building a career doesn't mean your life is empty of feeling. Becoming a mother doesn't mean you lose your ambition and your dreams ... yes, they may take longer to reach but so what ... and i work not because i am materialistic but beacause i NEED to want and WANT too ... i live in one of the most expensive areas in the country and just living costs a fortune ...

Some people enjoy working full-time, other enjoy being a SAHM - I get it.

As some other posters have suggested on this thread surely the next and most important stage of feminism is true flexible working.

A lot of people want a balance between childcare and work. Why shouldn't we be allowed the best of both worlds? How often do you see senior management (or even middle management) posts advertised as job shares or part-time? You may already be in one of these jobs and have negotiated a 4-day week or whatever after you have been on maternity leave, but where do you go from there? When you go for promotion it's almost impossible to say at the interview 'I'd like to work 3 or 4 days instead of 5'. You end up stuck where you are, so many women just tread water after their children are born.

My maternity leave is nearly over and I have just accepted a new management post in the public sector where senior level 3-day jobs are occasionally advertised. I consider myself to be very lucky; however the job itself is not as interesting as my old job so I have still had to compromise.

This is the issue I'd like to see addressed !

Taylor - I think work is great, I am NOT against it at all. I worked for years, and made lots of money. It is a necessary facet of existence for most of us.

But I hate the way Xenia is prejudiced against every woman who doesn't have a starry professional career, who thinks that life is a fight against men, who thinks that is totally indifferent whether children are brought up by people who love them or people who are paid to take care of them.

Anna - I suspect that Xenia, along with many other's on here - would have similar distate for the life you have chosen. They, unlike you, are too polite and considered to harp on about it, the way you do about Xenia.

The term 'protesteth too much' is at the back of my mind.

Why can you not accept that some women enjoy working and provided they ensure there is good quality childcare - which xenia seems to have done - they can raise happy, well-rounded children.

Just as Xenia's way isn;t the only way to raise a family - neither is yours. Neither is perfect, but perfection in parenting is a fool's game anyway, imo.

My mother lived a similar life to yours, and I detested the lack of ambition for herself. The lack of achievement. Who knows what your daughter will think of you! Xenia's children are old enough to be able to tell Xenia - and she says that they are proud of her, happy and well-adjusted adults. What more do you want from and for your chidlren?

You called me silly for suggesting that your DP should have stayed with his family. Can youjust tease apart for me why that might be?

In particular, can you address for me whether his need to be happy (and divorce his wife) overrode the happiness and needs of his children from the family. Yet, you seem to suggest that his wife's need to WOTH should have been subordinated to ensure the overall happiness of the family! Why does one party get away with a need to bearhunt - but not the other?