Yet another article re: why mothers should return to work

[boogiewoogie]

Just snatching a couple of minutes during a coffee break, will come back. What do you think of this?

No Cristina, i finished it. Much to the relief of my supervisor! Was quite a high non finishing rate in our department for some reason. I had a family bereavement as i was finishing and health problems so was given a small extension, and then another small extension!! But got there in the end. Its interesting that the language issue has come up, a friend in the department was from argentina and her supervisor used to make her correct her "spanglish" all in good humour i hasten to add. I think she publishes more than he does now - he he!

Cristina - I don't know why you think that well-off Americans (or any other English-speaking people) here in France would have trouble maintaining their English language skills. English is everywhere - every newsstand sells English papers and magazines, there are films in English in every cinema, bookshops, bilingual and mono-lingual English schools, English-speaking churches for those so inclined, lots of English-speaking associations for education and further training. It's just laziness on their part if they start speaking Franglais when they have the time and money to use everything at their disposal.

When you speak a less widely-spoken language (such as Romanian) it is inevitably going to be harder to find sources of support. Here in Paris there is an excellent and very active association for bilingual families that addresses these issues, principally directed at minority language-speakers (www.famillesbilingues.com). But you can also say to your friends (if they are true friends) that you want to maintain your language skills, and talk about issues surrounding bi and multi-lingualism.

I have a Bulgarian friend here, who speaks excellent English, French and Spanish, but she tells me that her Bulgarian hasn't suffered since being here - the only language that has is her Russian, because she doesn't use it. I do think it is largely up to the individual and their own self-discipline to maintain and develop their language skills.

"But you can also say to your friends (if they are true friends) that you want to maintain your language skills, and talk about issues surrounding bi and multi-lingualism." I can talk about it, I just can't find it easy enough to talk in it. It's not the most important thing in my life and I'd much rather spend time talking to my children in whatever way I can than wasting it away trying to keep perfectly fluent in Romanian. I'd only be doing it for them anyway and atm I think they'd value more that I give them my time than that I give them another language.

The example you give of the American mums must be a pretty extreme one as I can't see how they'd become quite so immersed into another language when so much seems to be swamped by American culture. I still don't see it as neglectful, though, just laid back perhaps, or totally adapted to their new country?

I'm trying to think now which writer it was who decided never to use his native language ever again. I think it was in defiance of his country's politics. He'd emigrated to France.

I found it, it was Emil Cioran. ?In 1944, while trying to translate Mallarme into Romanian, Cioran discovered the inherent weakness of Romanian and the limitations his native language imposed on his creative expression, so he decided to write exclusively in French from then on (though at the time he more fluent in German).? Nothing political then. I got it confused with his sympathies for the Iron Guard (the extreme right). www.littlebluelight.com/lblphp/intro.php?ikey=5

"being financially dependent on a man. I find that morally repugnant"

i am a feminist and yet i find that position really very extreme. would it be better if my dh was financially dependent on me while I worked ? would that be any less morally repugnant ? because to me it is very clear cut, my child HAS to be looked after by one of us, not by a stranger

you see that is why i think why harping on about feminism is so very strange when it comes to looking after pre-school children unless all feminists have what Freud called "penis envy" and wish to have a penis so that they are the ones who can make another woman pregnant, biology does NOT allow a father to do everything a mother does

i guess the ultimate feminist would say don't ever get into a relationship with a man at all, because you may end up relying on him emotionally, financially, or otherwise ? i have a friend in her 60's who did just that - she tries to hide the fact that she isn't lonely and doesn't like children, but you only have to watch her playing with my son to realiase that she regrets not having children, so is extreme feminism worth it ?

Anna - I didn't realise you live in France

If a rich American living in France wishes their child to go back to the US eventually, they should be employing nannies who speak English with an American accent, it will solve all their problems ! Alternatively they should stay at home and teach their own children their own lingo !

What about dual career couples that are both dependant on each others wages to live? (those who simply have to work to pay mortgage or food bills) What if one of them looses their job or they get divorced, assumably they would have to sell the house too? It's not just SAHM's who would have a hard time. Many women don't have a choice, they are out of pocket if they do work or they prefer to care while their DP is employed sharing the workload, why is it only OK if they are both doing 'half this' or 'half that' if it costs more? Life is short if being at home makes you and your family happy, good luck to you. Time is valuable too.

I don't need a man to define me and make me happy and I don't have a man. Is that an invalid choice or a lesser choice? No one says - woman needs man and that's the only route to a fulfilling life.

But assuming some women do choose to live with the fathers of their children where there is a known father (my sister had her twins my IVF through donor sperm from the US), those women who aren't gay etc, yes for now until we've had 5000 years of women ruling the world and earning more than men I think it's best to steer clear of a role where you're dependent on the man. I don't have quite the same problems with stay at home fathers because of the way men tend to be in charge all over the planet so it's not quite so morally difficult. Anyway you lot drive me to extremes. I don't really have problems with dependence within relationships either chidlren dependent on parents or vice versa when the parents are old or lesbian couples on each other or even men dependent on women and vice versa as we all depend on others often but when it's virtually always woman depend on man who then leaves her dstitute I do think the writer of this book did need to remind some women of the risks they take. Half your husbands will not be your husbands in the next 15 years. None of you know which will be in which category and whether he'll run off with someone else, die or you'll choose to leave but it's best to have a career for that amongst all the other reasons.

A lot of women do not like having to ask their husband for mnoey, don't feel it is quite their money any more even if they provide domestic services to the value of what he earns and even if he's nice about it and shares it 50/50 (many many don't - see lots of mumsnet threads such as - how much do you get paid by your husband etc....)

sneaks back in to say: Xenia, I do like your posts.

jb, in fact that is most couples - where both wages are needed and then something goes wrong. Even the widows I know are struggling because either they lost the wife's wage (one case) or they lost her services in looking after the children and now hire a nanny. Widows are in a better position though because they get a load of life insurance whereas those of us who are divorced are splitting capital if there is any and some of us paying out to husbands whilst supporting our children.

Cristina - no, I think that speaking Franglais (or whatever mixture of native language plus the language of the country you are living in) is lazy and neglectful fo one's children. It happens quite a lot to mixed language families and it is bad for the children's language development.

Personally I don't have any problems maintaining (and improving) English and French, nor speaking to my daughter exclusively in English and to my partner and stepsons in French.

yr - the cases I was talking about were of American women married to French men who have got lazy about speaking English, but don't speak perfect French either, and therefore speak Franglais to their children. And sometimes to my child (though not often as I don't hang out with that group of people), when I always ask them, very politely, to stop.

They have Filipinas or Sri Lankans at home because they are the only house employees you can get easily who speak both languages.

Xenia - you see I'm not in the mindset of being "the working parent" because it's necessity not choice. Mine is the stable career. DH's involves working away and too infrequently to justify paying for full-time childcare. He isn't in the mindset of being a SAHD - it just happens to be the circumstances.

I'm really shocked that because I have to be the one with the full time job it's just assumed that I care more about my job than my DS. Nothing could be further from the truth. I plan and cook all DS's meals, I take charge of medicines, I take him to the doctors, I choose his clothes, I could go on. I am his MUM first and foremost!

DH is as appalled as I am that these attitudes could exist! Talk about rubbing salt in the wound!

Surely the point is that extremes of any kind are usually dangerous. The fact is, WOHMs and SAHMs are general terms which in reality can cover a huge spectrum. I would have no respect for a mother (or indeed a father) whose work is more important than their children and who neglects their emotional needs in any way due to work.But in reality i know hardly anyone who even comes close to that. Most WOHM I know are well balanced people who enjoy both their work and their children. The mothers usually have thought through their reasons for working - often a mixture - paying the mortgage, being a good role model for kids, wanting intellectual stimulation etc. Their children are not damaged in any way at all. Likewise, I know SAHMs who have made a well thought out decision to stay at home for a few years because they are fortunate enough to be able to afford to, and because they want to be the primary carer. I have every respect for someone in that situation.At the other end of the SAHM spectrum are the mothers who are still at home all day, long after their kids are all in school, filling their day up going to the gym, lunching and wondering why they have nothing interesting to say to their partners at the end of the day. I would have no respect for a woman in that position - but again, the reality is that there aren't many about. Most of us are somewhere in the middle just getting on with our lives!

eb, good post. I agree. I wonder if I'd married someone who earns what I do if I'd work? I suspect so because I didn't work for financial reasons only but you never know how you'd be in a different situation. If I'd had seriously ill children (they have hardly ever been ill any of the 5 in 22 years) things might be different too.

The assumption that you don't love, care etc if you work is obviously a bit of a silly one as you still do loads of parenting day in day out. There seems to be a bit of a myth that if you work you don't see the children in the week. When they're babies working mothers tend to keep them up a bit later to play with them as they can sleep in the day. Once they're at school they stay up later anyway and once they're teenagers they go to bed after you do! If you have my mixture I've had times when the eldest got in at 5am as the twins got up for their first breastfeed of the day. There are a lot of hours of parenting even if you work full time.

As a post divorce person I would just caution anyone who works or doesn't that what people say when they're married usually changes hugely after divorce so be careful.

"The feminine mistake in the 21st century is to build your adult life around the notion that it?s safe to give up your financial autonomy and depend on someone else to support you. "

I completly agree with this. I think the SAHM 'rosy glow' is very effective propaganda, the reality is that even if you enjoy it more than any other form of work (because beign f/t with kids is certainly work) you are putting you and your kids economic and social future at risk.

I certainly wouldn't argue with that, SJ although many women would never have any sort of ap roper career at all and when the chidlren grow up the best they can hope for is work in a shop or school assistant and if they break beyond the minimum wagethey're lucky so their best hope for any financial stability is to marry a man with a good career and keep him happy enough to stay with you. Still a lot of that about. It's the argument that the money spent on the breast augmentation might long term be a better investment than the student loan for the French degree with job as a PA thereafter.

For some people though, they can use the chance to SAH to also better their opportunities. For example, I left school with little academically and had a baby very young. I worked low paid jobs p/t and f/t around DH for a long time until DH got a well paid job which involved shifts and working away. With 4, it is not worth working for minimum/average wage, but I have been able to use the time to study and make up for my lack of education first time round. I am sure it will still be hard to get back into a career, but I don't think I would have had the opportunity otherwise to study to a higher level. I don't see it as 'off my husbands back' (the cost of study) as YES he has supported me (although I got an award for some of it) but I also have supported him to allow him to do his dream job by taking on f/t childcare. He will benefit also when I am better paid eventually. It has always been in the back of my mind that I need to be able to support myself hence the further study and also keeps the brain going and provides some social time outside the home.

Anna - getting back to the language issue. Surely, if one language is learnt well, for example the language of the country you're in, then it's hardly "neglect" if you don't teach the other one perfectly too. Your "appallingly neglectful" sounds close to child abuse and that's so ridiculous.

As for your American mum who is so well off and with time on her hands - maybe that's what she's doing going out for all those lunches, trying to keep up her language skills? To be admired then, not despised. Anyhow, if she's so rich why isn't she sending her children at a bilingual school, I thought you said money can buy you these things?

jbm, that's true. Plenty of people take time off work and go on to do better things. Even a sabattical when you don't have children can help people decide what they want in life, get a fresh perspective and choose something new. I certainly think that can work. Loads of women have set up successful businesses are earn a lot more than they did when in their previous work and probably wo0uldnt' have ever tried that if they hadn't had a career break or the financial imperative children bring to earn enough to feed them.

Have we not all gone a little OT here???? Not naming names.

We're all mothers (and fathers). We all love our children. Some of us need/want to work. Some of us want/need to be at home with them. All of us want a good life for our children including a good education emotional security good values and generally happiness. if we all got together and used our voting power instead of scrapping perhaps we could make things better. The SAHM/WOHM debate leaves me cold as very few women I know conform to the cliched images of either-most of us are somewhere in between.

Higher professional standards of childcare? Tax deductible childcare? Scandiwegian style maternity /paternity leave? Less frighteningly expensive housing costs so we don't have hideous commutes/more teleworking. Better state schools so we don't need to pay school fees or house price premiums?

Mumsnet is a fabulous and supportive resource and i think we should use its campaigning and lobbying potential much much more rather than just spouting off about our own personal bugbears

I only skim read the feature but it seemed to me that all she was saying was that there can be be unpleasant consequences if women don't work and their marriages fall apart. Which is true surely. Of course it's up to you if you choose to take the risk or not. But I didn't find anything particularly controversial about the feature and it was a pleasant antidote to those Daily Mail type features about how baking is the new feminism.

I too am unafraid to use the word feminist - my mum is a manhater in many ways and used to warn me never to get married or be as dependent on a man is she was - that was more to do with her own problems but she like to put a political spin on things!

I am not entirely comfortable with not having a wage - but I have control of the finances make the big decisions re. bills, we have a joint acc. but dh never activated his card so he has to come to me for cash. We have agreed that we want the children cared for by one of us at least until they are a school and then we will revisit our decision. Being a 1950's housewife wasn't what I imagined i would be doing and enjoying for the most part but I am happy with my choices. All decisions are constrained in some way I know that my career prospects are harmed by taking 5 years out but I can always work if I need to.

My mum was left in an apalling state by my fathers early death (she was 41) but her inability to cope wasn't a result of poor planning or my dad being mean (he made additional pension contributions to leaveher with a pension albeit a teeny one) - she suffers from depression and no amount of career advice is going to motivate her into a career (or even a shop job) - if I was widowed that early I know I could cope and my dh would have a good death benefit payout from his employer. If he leaves me I have a large family network around that would help - finances are not the only things to consider.

Cross post with eb my thoughts exactly

not many educated, professional women see their husbands/partners as the thing that gives them the meaning of life !

perhaps the article is trying to speak to women who have bad marriages/partnerships rather than women who don't work ? isn't that the real issue ? because in a good relationship you work things out and in a bad one you don't. and if one partner goes under the bus, the other has a tough time, but it isn't the end of the world that the author is so good at portraying.

most people don't starve, most people don't think money is the most important thing in their lives, and most people have a network or family and friends who support if there is a bereavement. my mil begs me to let ds stay with her for months on end (she lives abroad), and this is while both parents are still alive ! if anything happens to either of us, ds has masses of relatives who would take care of him because they love him.