Yet another article re: why mothers should return to work

[boogiewoogie]

Just snatching a couple of minutes during a coffee break, will come back. What do you think of this?

I think its difficult NOT to go back to work unless you have a partner who earns enough to support you.

anna - i know xenia works - what i said about the 2 hours thing was very tongue in cheek

kks - I agree, though in my case since I became a mother quite late in life (38) I already had amassed some serious capital and had a (small) income from publications, so I'm not financially dependent.

christina - i wasn't criticising you i hope you realise - it was just a comment re. bilingualism

Anna - here you are, in your own wordsL: "Mostly they speak Franglais. So their children speak French (which they learn with their father and at school) and really bad Franglais, a mixture of what their mother speaks and their Filipina nanny's crap English. Appalling negligence."

I think that's pretty straightforward, don't you? You are assuming that because they don't speak good English they are neglected appallingly. Did it cross your mind (you know, in that profound thinking time you boast about) that it could be something else? Perhaps not enough English heard from everyone else around them, not just their American mums?

Anna8888,

As a working mother, can I just suggest that if you found a childcare arrangement that you were very happy with and the suited you and your child/ren and made them happy too you wouldn't feel guilty.

I couldn't work if I wasn't sure that my children are happily placed in a good quality nursery which by chance I check up on regularly with unplanned visits to drop off/pick them up at odd times of the day, (not just at opening and closing times) and which has just had another very good ofstead inspection report.

One of the other mother's from this nursery is bilingual and we do meet up sometimes at a weekend for the children to play together. She admits she has to actually work at the bilingual thing, "it doesn't happen by osmosis" were her own words otherwise her son just mixes English and Dutch words in the same sentence -he will be 5 in July.

I see anna888 why women have kids later. I imagine its easier money wise

Yellowrose - not at all, I didn't feel criticised. I know this is the most credible and enduring research nowadays about bilingualism, that you should speak to a child in the language you are fluent in. I gave the example of BSL as that was something we had to confront many years ago when choosing a communication mode for my deaf son. I won't bore you with the politics of it all, but basically we decided we wouldn't learn Chniese in a couple of weeks and bring up a child in Chinese, we'd stick to what we already know. BSL was just about as alien at the time as Chinese, not something you could learn in a few sessions of "Sing & Sign with your baby". I didn't have the courage to bring him up bilnigually with Romanian too, we stuck to only English. Now I know lots of oral deaf kids with two (or more!) languages, but I was too scared to try at the time. He might learn it as a second language. Or, going by his hearing sister, brought up bilingually, he might not. Hang on, maybe they are just being neglected.

i have to say anna that i have known many Filipina men/women when i lived abroad - they all spoke excellent English - even the ones with what we would regard as menial jobs - they don't speak Queen's English, but you don't have to in order to have a good command of the English language - I think a Filipino reading this thread would be very offended

now if a Filipina nanny or a French nanny or a Mongolian nanny is the child's MAIN source of English throughout the day, I would agree that is not brilliant simply because they have a very different accent and if you want to your child to speak like Prince Charles (god forbid) you should consider getting a public school boy or girl to be their main carer

Oh please everyone, i really am in a humorous mood, so please don't shoot me down, just trying to chill

Lucyellen - I'm at the writing up stage. My funded time has expired (I only had one year) so I need to do it in my own time. When I disappear from MN for weeks at a time it's because I impose some self-discipline to finish this thing. It didn't help that last year I lost all my work, had to re-do it from bits and bobs, old versions, and I kind of lost my enthusiasm.

Cristina - I am saying that it is negligent on the part of an American mother with plenty of time on her hands not to (a) speak proper English (not Franglais) with her children (b) to leave them in the care of someone who doesn't speak proper English when that is not necessary.

Negligent because the benefits of speaking good English are self-evident, and because learning to speak a language badly is harmful to intellectual development.

christina - think you have down the best thing for your son.

yr - one of the problems here that both Filipinas and Sri Lankans face is that they arrive speaking excellent English but they work and live all day long in French and after a while they start speaking Franglais, and even forgetting English at the expense of French.

Quite a lot of families employ Filipinas and Sri Lankans hoping that their children will learn English from them, but it doesn't seem to work well at all.

Cristina - good luck with it all, i know it can be a tough time, it feels like things (techonology in particular!) conspires against you. I totally get the enhusiasm thing, i actually told my supervisor i was going to quit, with only two chapters to go, he was great and just explained to me that i could do it and thats what i did. So glad i did, not sure if i will ever use the qualification to its full potential, but it makes me feel good about myself. I have to say, the internet was the bane of my life, i mean, i just had to email ALL of my friends before i settled down to write. Arrrgghhh!

Grrr - maybe (not sure), the childcare issue is greatly complicated by the fact that I live in France and I don't like the quality of the childcare here, plus I really want my daughter to speak good English.

The bilingualism thing is a lot of work, it certainly doesn't happen by osmosis, though I don't ever speak Franglais. We are lucky here in Paris in that there are some excellent bilingual schools.

Anna - why are your expectations for the American mums so much higher than those of the Filipinas and Sri Lankas? Why do you think American mums are above speaking Franglais when they've lived there for many years? When I speak to my Romanian friends we use some English words. Or we may start a sentence with the English structure and mend it along the way into the Romanian syntax, or start again. I've been here for 14 years and I only meet with 8 other Romanian friends once every couple of months. They are in the same situation. I make a conscious effort to speak properly with my DD but someitmes I take a shortcut and I mgiht use an English word. It's not being lazy or neglectful, it's just how things are. You can't have control over absolutely every word that comes out of your mouth (as your own posting on here should have told you by now .

I agree with you that a mixture of two languages isn't the best thing for a child, but it's hardly negligent when it comes naturally by virtue of having lived somehwere long enough. In deaf education children who use sign supported English (so hearing English and seeing a simplified form of Sign), rather than just BSL or just oral English, seem to fare worse. Something I really struggled to understand in the early days and really didn't want to belive it to be true. I am convinced of this now, both intellectually and in practice.

Lucyellensmum - thanks for the good wishes. Did you give up on your PhD then? With only two chapters to go???

Cristina - ONLY the parents are responsible for a child's upbringing.

An educated and well-off American woman who has lived in France for several years and who has plenty of time on her hands ought, to my mind, feel responsible enough towards her own children to speak proper English to them and to ensure that they get plenty of opportunities to speak English with people who master the language.

My own Sri Lankan cleaner (who is very educated, a political refugee) and I have talked about this issue. She finds it difficult now, after many years in France and with her children in a French state school (because she and her husband cannot afford anything else), to speak English properly. Unfortunately her French isn't perfect either. I see the Filipinas around me and they have the same issues - they have to work very hard and they are much less able to devote time to maintaining and developing their language skills than well-off non-working Americans.

I speak French perfectly and I speak English perfectly. I don't ever speak Franglais - why would I?

I read a few of the posts her and several of them ring bells regardless of whether they are sahm OR wohm. Perhaps that is because I work pt (3 long days - leave hse at 06.30 and return at 18.30). I am typing here dreading the fact that I must start dinner for the kids (I love cooking) and it reminds me how I feel when there is another boring piece of work to do in the office. A sense of dread!

I love tickling my kids or talking ot them or reading but always in the back of my mind is some bloody chore I have to do. I don't have enough contact with other people in either world. the people I work with are not the most talkative and the other mums I know are too far away or too busy for meaningful relationships. Neither roles stimulate me and both depress me in one for or other. I hate all the domestic chores which result in me not spending time doing silly stuff with the kids and never feel like I can revel in the moment.

Deffo not the have it all generation but the do it all. Before anyone says it would be better if I worked FT - it wasn't! Did that for 5 years with DS and that was worse. You know it's not even the kids I think suffer it's me. My DS is a bright funny boy who is doing remarkably well at school and his sister is taking after him. I do wonder if they view me as the drudge who is always tired.

Oh well off to cook another meal and worry about a big thing I am arranged at work tomorrow.

I have never felt guilty. I thought it was politically and personally sensible to work and better for my children. In part that's because of my 2 hours thing. I don't mind admitting it as I am sure legions of husbands would admit (and indeed many mothers who dare not say it because of some stupid conditioning) that I find it hard to be with the children for long periods. Their interests aren't mine. I do like discussing politics with my son and economics and law with the two daughters respectively but I don't like standing in the garden kicking a football with one of the 8 year olds which is hlovely nanny does ad nauseam and they're on 3 weeks and 3 days holiday now and yesterday she spent literally hours with one of them patiently doing things like looking up all the characters of whatever he is now into - I think it was Tamagotechis in a kind of trainspotterish way.

I was at home working yesterday and he did come into me every few hours with some to him hugely exciting tamagotchi things he wanted to tell me and I feigned appropriate interest for 5 minutes but I could never do that 10 hours a day plus scrub floors iron male shirts etc etc It's tedious to death. I'd pay not to do it. I don't see that that makes me a non loving mother. We cuddle and talk and interact but I have a time limit on what I can stand and obviously for me as well as protecting my financial position and interesting me - the meeting this morning was really interesting, I also need to be relieved of the boredom of long periods of childcare. It's just not my thing. I can remember some pangs when they were very very little and breastfeeding and going back to work but I knew they would be well cared for and I knew when I was in my 40s what I wanted to earn, the career I wanted to pursue. i don't think I was plotting to be financially free to divorce once I turned 40 at all so it wasn't really a planning for that kind of thing but I doubt I could ever psychologically cope with being financially dependent on a man. I find that morally repugnant.

dros, isn't the fact though that you don't like the work you do and shoudl have chosen something else. Or is it that some people are never happy with their lives whatever they're doing and some are - so may be it's a hormones, diet, pyschology, serotonin, beta endorphin sort of issue rather than whether you stay home or not.

drosophila - yes, sounds as if you are too busy. I know the feeling (and I wasn't even a mother at the time) and when you constantly feel like you're running to keep up, life feels like drudgery.

And Xenia, no, I don't think it's about not having made the right career choice. It's about being too busy to really engage with any part of your life. That's what so-called feminism has brought lots of women.

My mother, who always ensured my sister and I got all the educational opportunities we wanted, said to me rather sadly one day, a few years ago, "I never imagined that your lives would be such hard work".

Xenia it's more the people. I realised too late that the promotion I looked for and got meant I would be working in a head office. I prefered the rough and tumble of being on the ground. I got caught up in wanteing promotion and more money and ignored where I would end up. The people are very serious and like a quiet environment to work.

I like to have a laugh and have the odd social evening with people I work with and it simply does not happen where I am.

I agree though general levels of depression infect all strands of your life.

Must go now or it will have to hot dogs!!

Anna - So how would you recommend I keep up my own language? I see friendships as much more than just learning opportunities. Should I only be friends with recently emigrated Romanians, whose language hasn't been spoiled yet? Should I just use people, even if I have nothing else in common otherwise? Should I get satellite TV and watch Romanian news so I keep up with the language, even if I have no interest in what's going on? Seriously. Or perhaps I should take up religion and go to the Orthodox church and listen to the priest droning on and then have a meaningless little chat with others afterwards.

I'll tell you what I tried doing: I joined a Romanian parents' forum for keeping up my language skills. Unfortunately, I found it rather boring after a while. I'm pretty well-off and I have quite enough time on my hands, as my bursts of postings on MN will show you. So how else do you suggest I maintain my language purity?

Suggest to your American friends that their children watch American movies and telly. Or would you find that neglectful too? What opportunities should they create that are acceptable to you?