Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Government has descended into all-out war (Telegraph)

19 replies

abilockhart · 17/07/2017 10:10

According to the Tory-supporting Telegraph, the GOVERNMENT has
descended into ALL-OUT WAR.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/17/brexit-eu-philip-hammond-david-davis-live/

The egos and personal ambitions of Tory politicians are a priority, not Brexit negotiations.

The country as a whole will pay a huge price for their petty ambitions and dirty war.

OP posts:
BubblesBuddy · 17/07/2017 11:40

The country should have know better then and voted remain. It's partly our fault. The Cons have always had strife over this. There are nasty types in the cabinet and TM cannot control them any more than John Major could 25 years ago. They leak what they want, when they want, to smear each other. What did anyone think Gove and co would do?

Labour did the same in the 70s which is why Alistair Campbell took such a stranglehold after 1997. The Brexit types got us into this mess by agitating for 35 years. The only time there was relative quiet was under Tony Blair. The least well off will suffer and vast numbers voted without having any idea of what the consequences will ultimately be.

TheaSaurass · 18/07/2017 02:47

Bubblesbuddy is correct, in that 'the question' of Europe has been a festering sore in the Conservative for decades now.

Clearly what the Conservatives need is either a Labour 'spin doctor' telling everyone that 'you are with us or against us' and stifling 'objectors' and the media alike.

Or the current 'Momentum' party within a Labour Party, telling every moderate Labour MP within that disagrees with the 'kinder more democratic' politics of the current leadership - get in line or we will toast (deselect) you. NOT.

"Labour civil war: Momentum's 'Militant-style' blueprint for gaining influence for Jeremy Corbyn"

twofingerstoEverything · 18/07/2017 08:54

Clearly what the Conservatives need is either a Labour 'spin doctor' telling everyone that 'you are with us or against us' and stifling 'objectors' and the media alike.

They don't need a spin doctor to do that. They have the right wing press in their pockets, talking about 'saboteurs' and 'enemies of the people'.

Your anti-Labour rhetoric is hilarious and predictable. Anyone would think you were a paid Tory shill or something (not that I'm suggesting that for one minute!) Maybe you should listen to R4's Today programme and their stories about the falling per capita investment in the NHS and the increasingly bad health outcomes for the poorer in society and the negative impacts of wealth inequality (all since 2010 strangely...)

abilockhart · 18/07/2017 09:15

The former head of the Vote Leave campaign (yes, the Vote Leave campaign) branded the Brexit Secretary, David Davis, as “thick as mince” and “as lazy as a toad” over his performance as Brexit Secretary to date.

It comes on the same day that Davis made a half-day trip to Brussels to negotiate with EU officials, where he faced criticism for sitting down for talks without any notes. Davis’s approach was in stark contrast to the European Commission negotiators, who sat with large piles of briefing papers in organised binders.

OP posts:
BubblesBuddy · 18/07/2017 23:43

What on earth has the press got to do with controlling the cabinet and collective responsibility that is the convention of cabinet discussions and final agreements? If you disagree, you shut up. Next time, when the majority decision goes your way, the ones who did not agree with you also shut up!

New Labour sensibly reinforced this. If you do not stop this public rift and constant disagreements, you are perceived as weak and wobbly and everything is laid bare. In our current position it is disastrous. The press can only report what they are given whether Conservative leaning or not. It's useful to know how politics should work! The press is hardly the problem here.

David Davis is a con man. Conned the public with false claims and rhetoric. He appears to be sitting down for a chat whereas 27 other countries mean business.

TheaSaurass · 19/07/2017 12:33

The OP is about Tory party disunity, and the New Labour under the “stranglehold” of Alistair Campbell was then mentioned, which is well known to also include his bullying of the press – clearly at the moment the party can rely on a whole movement within to make the parliamentary party stay on message - but in general, frankly I’d rather MP’s with half a brain have their own opinions, rather than be told by the ‘dark arts’ of spin within, or nowadays other types of persuasion, to get behind the leadership’s mantras.

As in an attempt to add further ‘balance’ to possible selective memory, re the rather curious thought the Conservatives control the press, in 1997, when Blair and Brown were buddies with Mr Murdock whose Sun said their influence was ‘wot won it’ (didn’t his wife later have a childrens ‘sleepover’ at the Browns at #11?) - how many newspaper supported the Conservative Party from 1997?

Obviously, the Daily Mail and increasing based on Labour’s policies, the Telegraph, but which others out of several – and what about the BBC’s left wing bias e.g. who later even apologised for burying the effects of immigration on every day services etc in the UK – when the press and posters on their sites were told just mentioning immigration was RACIST, I wonder who was behind that.

It was due to the attempts of the then government and media that gave oxygen to a UKIP listening to those believing that the Single Market wasn’t working for them, and more recently, resulting in Brexit – so while Tory cabinet members should grow up or get a big slap/sacking, as a party, I’d rather Conservative MP’s in government speak their mind, and when they sometimes vote against the government – I THEN get to watch our opposition parties without a majority, curiously then taking the credit.

alteredimages · 19/07/2017 12:39

I thought that nothing much could shock me any more, but I really am surprised at how hell bent parts of the Tory party seem to be on fucking everything up forever.

WTAF was the point of David Davis' half day trip to Brussels with no notes and no negotiating position? It's embarrassing and insulting to the nation that they seem to care so little about such an important process. Davis is supposed to be in favour of Brexit so you would think he would be interested in making it succeed.

The Cabinet members who are leaking stories to the press are a complete disgrace. I hope they all take each other out Dastardly and Mutley style because this is about the level we have descended to.

BubblesBuddy · 19/07/2017 12:41

Bullying the press? I am not sure I agree with that. Our top political journalists would really disagree with that assertion.

If we do not have collective responsibility, we all lose out. It is a fundamental of Cabinet governance. Belonging to a party, and especially when promoted to the Cabinet, means you do not speak out against colleagues all the time. You should not join a party if you do not support it on fundamental issues. This is the whole idea of party politics. If the party changes course, there are large issues presented to MPs about their future in the party. All parties spin. It is naive to think they do not. Remember Bernard Ingham? You probably don't, but he spun for Margatent Thatcher.

Historically, some Conservatives agitated against the EU before UKIP was a glint in anyone's eye. How history gets forgotten!

mummmy2017 · 19/07/2017 17:27

Yes the Con wanted to stay in, but the people who bothered to vote wanted out in higher numbers.
I think that Davis was called home to vote due to Corbyn rattling bones again, and yes this will happen alot in the next few years.
If you read the papers then everything is the end, the doom the fall, and yet still we soldier on, becasue maybe it's not as bad as they want to paint it.
The EU is a poison challis to any leader as what ever happens one side will be saying how dare you choose this for us, but we are coming out of the EU and it's happening, so wouldn;t it be better to club together and get a deal that is good for us, as I said on another post the WTA may just be what we get and it won't kill us if that happens, as you can't say we won't trade with the EU after we leave.

BubblesBuddy · 20/07/2017 13:13

It is not too bad at the moment but we are way off knowing the true cost of all this in national terms.

It has nothing to do with "clubbing together"! The EU is 27 countries and they have an agreed position. We are a lone voice whoever is the voice or voices. We have under-prepared, under-resourced, and under-educated negotiators on all matters EU. They have been preparing for this with vast resources. We have been arguing and have no united view and will never have one.

Trade is hugely complicated. Some goods cross borders from the UK to other countries multiple times. Look at BAE systems for example. This simplistic view is what got us into this mess in the first place! And this is before we get into financial trading, the nuclear industry and educational agreements!

TheaSaurass · 20/07/2017 13:47

EU Statement; “Lack of a clear British position”

Translation; The UK will not agree to OUR demands to have OUR jurisdiction and OUR insistence of ‘rights’ in the UK of over 3 million EU citizens and their descendants in perpetuity, or pay our very cheeky Euro 100 billion bill, without the basic courtesy of an itemised breakdown.

abilockhart · 20/07/2017 15:00

The UK government cannot agree with one another, never mind with any EU position.

This indulgent Tory infighting risks turning Brexit into a national disaster

Michael Gove refused to back UK position paper on Brexit

While the EU has spent the last year doing their homework, the lazy sods in the Tory government have been sitting on their posteriors doing nothing.

David Davis 'as thick as mince' and 'lazy as a toad', says former Vote Leave chief Dominic Cummings

OP posts:
alteredimages · 20/07/2017 15:36

Don't worry though, apparently a free trade deal with the EU is going to be the easiest thing ever.

Sounds like it's not just Davis who is as thick as mince. Do any of these people see how they come across or have an inkling of how to conduct negotiations?

TheaSaurass · 20/07/2017 18:12

abilockhart

The UK government has agreed, in line with the EU stance on its very strict rules, that if the UK is to;

  • Control our own borders, negotiate our own trade deals (without 27 other countries protectionist 'baggage') do not have the European Court of Justice courts supreme over our courts, and not want to contribute to the EU 'model' (where wealth is transferred from large countries to smaller ones) - the UK has to leave the Single market and Customs Union.

That is more than any other party has agreed, as even last Sunday, after negotiation began, Labour has STILL not made up its mind (contradicting its election manifesto the leave the Single Market), and the Lib Dems and SNP are encouraging EU negotiators to play 'hard ball' - as they want Brexit negotiations to go boobs up, as they still refuse to accept the will of the people.

The UK government split, is mainly on 'transitional' agreements, where we have to legally leave the EU on the day set by Article 50, but we are STILL negotiating terms (no doubt) up until the next election - in other words, there in no incentive for the EU to agree anything, and prolong the time, on the trusting assumption, it will be no harder a 'fall' then, than the day we legally leave the EU.

TheaSaurass · 20/07/2017 18:13

EU Statement; “A Free Trade Deal between the UK and EU could take years to agree”

Translation; Although the UK and EU are currently in complete customs, rules and regulation etc synchronisation of 100% of trade, it does not suit Brussels with their own agenda to be ‘asked’ to send a memo to the other 27 of our members (with a trade surplus with the UK), to instruct negotiators what THEY think should now be excluded, from the current 100% whole, after Brexit.

TheaSaurass · 20/07/2017 18:28

alteredimages

Re your; "Don't worry though, apparently a free trade deal with the EU is going to be the easiest thing ever."

Surely you can see the difference between a Canada going item by item with the EU to CONSTRUCT a whole trade deal that took several years - and and a UK currently compliant in every way with the EU - and negotiators looking at what we currently have with 27 other countries, and them making exemptions?

The problem of that is course you need two parties of 'good will', but the EU who sells far more to us than we do to them, want to leave the Trade Deal that suits them in cash terms to last, as they want to extort Euro 100 billion out of us first;;

"“EU companies would have to pay £13 billion year in tariffs compared to £5 billion for British firms, says thinktank”

“EU trade commissioner says (EU) bloc will do post-Brexit free trade deal with UK 'for sure'

FYI it took Australia and America, with two parties of 'good will', to do free trade deal in 15-months.

Lucysky2017 · 21/07/2017 19:13

There is a lot of misleading going on in the press at present. They did not sit down without notes - they just had not removed them from their bags at the point the photo was taken.

abilockhart · 28/07/2017 08:25

The lazy toads in the Conservative government have been called out again:

www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/home-office-s-lack-of-action-on-post-brexit-border-is-shocking-1.3169069

Britain’s Home Office, the government department responsible for border control and immigration, has admitted it has not consulted any external experts on the effect of Brexit on the Irish Border.

Despite the border being a key issue in negotiations, the Home Office has not sought any advice from experts on the potential impact of Brexit on Irish citizens living in Britain or Northern Ireland.

The Home Office’s admission – made in response to a Freedom of Information Act request lodged by the investigative website theferret.scot – has been described as “shocking” by experts on both sides of the Border.

OP posts:
TheaSaurass · 28/07/2017 14:38

Strictly to the EU Negotiators agenda and tactics, Round One is what;

EU/UK citizens with them wanting their ECJ to have rights in perpetuity over our courts we won’t accept as proposed, a Brexit divorce bill they say we owe Euro 60-100 billion (without any detail) but blame us for not providing our figures, and the Irish border – where they think dropping more accusations/propaganda, it will cause maximum internal UK problems, doing their work for them over the next few months.

And none of this has anything to do with Eurozone member, the Republic of Ireland, ‘hardening’ its Brexit stance (on que)?

“Talk of sea border with Britain riles vulnerable May's Northern Irish allies”

”Northern Irish protestant politicians who are propping up British Prime Minister Theresa May's minority government reacted with fury on Friday to a report that Ireland wants the Irish Sea to be its border with Britain after Brexit.”

”They described the idea as "absurd" and "unconstitutional". One senior member of the group the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) suggested it now meant "a very hard border" returning to the island.”

Clearly after EU Negotiator Barnier’s recent meeting wit Mr Corbyn and Ms Sturgeon, he’d rather for the EUs sake to have them in government via a more expensive kind of coalition in the UK, negotiating, rather than the Conservatives and DUP.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page