Very interesting article for anyone with a DS

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\linknews.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3871545.stm{}

That is: treated more gently so as to become more confident, not to guard against autism etc.

Suzywomg, but I don't think that disproves the idea at all. He says quite clearly that males are more likely to display disturbed and anti-social behaviour and this is exactly why male babies and children need more nurturing and less 'toughening up'.

Because autism has so much more to it than withdrawal. (In fact I would say my son isn't withdrawn at all). And to be honest the root problems of autism are reaosnably well understoof now (now that they bother to listen to adult autistics). It has at its root sensory problems (often severe) which make it impossible to decode the world. Add in the oddities of language and the strange way itis used and misunderstood and it becomes blatantly obvious that you are dealing with entirely different things.

Somewhere I have a piece written about children in Romanian orphanages who were ignored from birth. Some research was done where the researcher used an unfortunate term- institutional autism or something because of the withdrawl shown by the children. However similar the behaviour appeared superficiallly it actually has quite profound differences to autistic children. Somewhere I have a iece about it if I find it I'll post it. I suppse rocking etc would have the same basic cause- a sensory deprivation- but in the case of the orphans that deprivation has come from outside, whilst in the case of autists it is internal and due to fault stimulation/procesing.

Also the Romanian orphans had SEVERE sensory deprivation, blank walls, no touch- which will have given them sensory integration disorder. That will always give rise to some autisticlike behaviours- but not autism itself.

Please excuse my huge ignorance, what is the "refrigerator mother theory"?

Jimjams post of 2.11.37 explains it Chandra.

Thanks Aloha, I was starting to think I have killed this thread

Just been sent a different article about this via an autism list. And Dr Seb did actually say (If you treat boys like girls then) "Boys would be less prone to attention deficit disorder and would
perform better at school." He then went on to say the bit on the BBC site about autism/AS etc.

Which is slightly dodgy imo. God I'm pleased my child doesn't have ADHD - their poor mother's are always getting it in the neck.

This doctor guy is a client of mine. We are the organisers of teh pyschiatry conf he is speaking at, and we organised his accommodation. I'm also attending a dinner he'll be at tommorrow!

OK - you have it out with him then Northerner!

Just ask him if he's happy with the media coverage. I've contacted researchers in anger before on this sort of issue and then found out that their work had been taken out of context.

If the opportunity arises I'l certainly mention it. He is a VIP though so will probably be surrounded all night.

Jimjams, I've done a google search on him and read some articles by him in the BMJ and he never says (in anything I've read) that austism is caused by poor parenting. His argument seems to me that contrary to popular opinion, boys are far more vulnerable than girls in every area of development and thus we should take care, as a society, to treat them with more gentleness and understanding and drop the obsession with 'toughening them up' and making them into 'real men' as this is hugely counterproductive, leading boys to become more violent, difficult at school and more criminal and more ill and even die younger. I find it a pretty convincing argument myself. In everything I've read he uses autism as an example of yet another area where boys are more vulnerable. In another article he seems to state that there is a very high genetic component to autism, so that points to his not believing that autism is caused by parenting, surely?

That's hardly ground breaking though Aloha there's plenty written about how much more vulnerable boys are to everything biological/devlopmental than girls.

I'm not disagreeing at all with the idea that boys should get cuddles etc. I'm just saying that the way that the BBC has written this up is a bit on the careless side. And it must be being interpreted as being to do with autism as I was sent a similar article - based on his comments- from a US autism news service. The quote in that article about ADHD is a bit dodgy imo- but may well have been taken out of context.

Not read all the thread, but for god sake when ARE THEY GOING TO LEAVE US MOTHERS ALONE!

Do they not read the medical reports on ADHD and the facts that surround it. larssxx

Not read all the thread, but for god sake when ARE THEY GOING TO LEAVE US MOTHERS ALONE!

Do they not read the medical reports on ADHD and the facts that surround it. larsxx

Sorry for the over post!

It may not be groundbreaking, true, but I still think it deserves repeating. I think the levels of teenage male suicide are terrifying. And in a world where Gordon Ramsay is revered, I do wonder what kind of role models we are presenting our sons with.

It may not be groundbreaking, true, but I still think it deserves repeating. I think the levels of teenage male suicide are terrifying. And in a world where Gordon Ramsay is revered, I do wonder what kind of role models we are presenting our sons with.

I would be interested to see this article, Jimjams. I think in the real world this message - that boys need gentleness - does need emphasising.

So I'm doing the right thing then when I've told dh he can't teach boxing to ds (3.5) until he is old enough to know the appropriate time to use. But where did I go wrong with dd....she is a total brute and at 20 mo. is forever beating up 4 year olds in the playground if they even look funny at ds (she is very protective of him as he is such a softy). And I'm not exaggerating, we have had more than one irate father come to dh to complain about our child attacking their child. They are truly embarrassed when they see that it's a baby girl who's got their boy crying.

I've deleted the link Aloha (only read it on email so I don't even know where it was from). It was very similar to the BBC report but just quoted the sentence below about ADHD. Amy be taken out of context but is dodgy as it stands. I don't know if you saw the programme about jacqui jackson, but Joe has to be one of the most "complex" cases of ADHD I have ever come across. Really very difficult behavioural problems in situations like school and even home- and yet he is a very loving warm boy growing up in a very loving environment. The idea that children like him would be different if they had been given more love is laughable- he couldn't have been. And jacqui definitely isn't into the idea of "toughen up" with her boys. Not at all. Just makes me cross when a little dig seems to be given to parents of children with ADHD again. Of course- the psych may not have said that- but I disagree with the reporting of that part of the speech.

I think that's second children SofiaAmes. All the ones I have come across (including my own) are completel insane, tough little nuts. DS2 (2) spends the whole time bossing his 5 year old brother around. I'm always telling him not to be so bossy.

Agree that boys are more vunerable to biological/develomental issues Jimjams. To be honest most of the boys that I have taught have been less 'mature' than their age and ability matched female peers. Even the most able boys are often less mature and organised than the girls. Most of them would, imho, benefit from being a year lower in school IYSWIM. And I have one of each and no bias, I hope.

Well on an extensive search of his published articles I can't find a single instance where he has said poor parenting has caused any diagnosed condition. I still think his point has a lot of relevance, and no, I don't think people are in the least bit inclined to treat baby boys with the same amount of gentleness, let alone more. Look at SofiaAmes post where she says fathers (in particular) are 'mortified' that their boys are upset by a girl - ie they expect them to be tougher, stronger, even violent and emotionless. Actually, it's pretty normal that a four year old girl would be tougher emotionally than a little boy.
But on the attention deficit thing, which I actually think it is a totally separate debate, and nothing whatsoever to do with Kraemer's call for people to treat their baby boys with more tenderness in some US schools 15% of boys are diagnosed with various Attention Deficit disorders and are on Ritalin, and frankly, though I know some people find this view unacceptable, I find this worrying. My own brother has undiagnosed difficulties so I am not unsympathetic and I do agree that these disorders exist, but from what I have read about the US model, I strongly suspect that, yes, there is an intolerance of some kinds of behaviour, and some poor parenting giving rise to extremely difficult kids who are being diagnosed and treated, possibly inappropriately. did you see SuperNanny last night? I wondered what that little boy would have been like at school if it wasn't for the programme, and I always think of that little girl on that TV programme we often discuss. She was diagnosed with ADHD but was transformed with a different kind of parenting. I'm sorry if this view is offensive to some, but the belief that a condition exists is not incompatible with the belief that it can be inappropriately diagnosed in some cases.

it's testosterone though isn't it hmb. It has an inhibotory affect. Boys are born developmentally behind girls - and I think (but could be wrong on this) neurones myelinate more slowly - so are therefore more at risk of environmental insults- whcih can give rise to autism etc etc.

Is that a Biddulph idea? Keeping boys down. I think so- I think he talks a lot of sense most of the time with regard to boys.

Aloha I actually have no idea what we're arguing about. I'm complaining about one sentence written by the BBC. The only sentence I've disagreed with from Dr Seb is the one I quoted below- which I have already said may have been taken out of context. I'm complaining about the reporting of his words with reference to whatever he said about ADHD. And I still think the original BBC article is worded sloppily and can lead less informed readers to the idea that treating boys gently makes them less likely to be autistic. I'm not complaining about Dr Seb on that bit, I'm complaining about the media reporting of what he said. As I've said before I'm releived that my child doesn't have ADHD as I'd probably get all and sundrys opinions shoved down my throat on how I should be letting him climb trees or something- but as I've written before the public understanding of autism is heading the same way and so when ds1 kicks off in public I rarely use the phrase- and normally say "he can't talk" instead. So therefore when I see sloppy media reporting I will jump on it. The situation with ADHD in the States and the UK is completely different. Most UK experts believe that it is underdiagnosed here, and that more children culd benefit from ritalin. The people I know who have kids on ritalin (well ususally concerta) have gone through years of avoiding it like the plague becuase of the stigma, then when they have finally caved in and given it discovered that both they and thier child have some sort of life back. Of course it doesn't mean it isn't sometimes given inappropriately but that is not currently a big problem in the UK.

And as I keep saying I don't disagree that boys should be treated any differently to girls in terms of affection etc.

Wouldn't be surprised if myelinaltion is key, it is, after all one of the changes that occurs as the brain matures in the late teens and early 20s.

We expect boys to be as mature as age matched girls and they seldom are. We need a major re-think of the education system as it does not suit the vast majority of teenage boys that I work with.