I'm not normally an advocate for "shock and awe"....or any other type of war.......

[fannyannie]

but I am today - I'm blaming it on the hormones - I just wish Bush/Blair/Anyone would drop a bomb on Mugabe's "presidential palace" ......preferably when he's there.

dominic you are insane

a friend of mine has a friend who has gone out there with her dp to work as a Christian missionary . God help them is all I can say.

I have to say I am infuriated by Mbeki's silence over all of this - why is he so spineless?

donnie - SA has sort of spoken out about the beating of the opposition leader.

But I think the main reason Mbeki doesn't speak out against the appaling human rights abuses in Zimbabwe is a worry about the impact on South Africa if major civil unrest were to occur. There are already an estimated 2-3 million Zimbabweans living illegaly in South Africa - and major unrest would cause a major flood of refugees across the border........and he doesn't want to have to deal it.

oh have they ? I must have missed that then! I cannot imagine Mbeki coming out strongly and condemning Mugabe for anything.

I do wonder what it would take for the west to 'get involved' but the west hasn't done anything of note in Darfur either.

yes - a very vague statement though

"A statement on Tuesday by the South African government stopped short of any criticism of the Zimbabwean government and urged it to ensure that "the rule of law, including respect for the rights of all Zimbabweans and leaders of various political parties, is respected.""

Mbeki is not spineless, he just believes in solidarity with other black leaders. He also believes that AIDS doesn't exist and also that it can be cured by lemon juice.
Actually that's unfair of me.
AIDS is actually a disease of politicians (apparently), and thus senior ANC party members can be treated for it.
Sadly, S.Africa is completely dominated by the ANC, and we have to wait for him to retire for any change.

Note I said "change", not "improvement".

actually you've got that wrong too - not long after he assumed Presidency he declared that it was a "disease of poverty"....... - and yes he did initially try and stop antiviral drugs being available to all.

This changed in 2003 - by March 2005 least one service point for AIDS related care and treatment had been established in all of the 53 districts in the country.

Although admittedly the number of people actually getting the drug was below the targets set (hardly suprising - even devloped countries governments get targets wrong and don't meet them).

What Fannieannie said.

How many people, (to the nearest hundred thousand) has Mbeki caused to die of AIDS through this ?

See Morgan Tsvangirai is in intensive care, receieved 2 pints of blood and is being monitored for a suspected fractured skull...
Nothing new to him though, he has had so many attempts on his life.

I think Mandelas son dying of AIDs was a wake up call to ordinary Sth Africans, but the ignorance and apathy of the disease must have cost hundreds of thousands of lives. or it certainly will, generations of AIDS orphans, it will have serious ramifications for the infrastructure of the country as it is not confined to the poorest anymore.

It is mostly of course the black population that suffer with it though, which makes Mbeki denying the cause and actual disease for so long insane for someone who you would presume would want to countrys people to forge forward.

SA is so rich in some ways and so poor in others.

I don't think there are those sorts of figures available.

But the HIV prevelance rate amongst pregnant women has gone UP since the anti-viral drugs became available.......

there are a lot of people and things you can blame for Aids deaths in sub-Saharan Africa. Like the CEO and shareholders of many pharmaceutical companies, the people who negotiate intellectual property rights on drugs, the people who vote for them ... Sure, Mbeki isn't perfect, but he's not bad. Blair ain't so hot either, or Ahern ..

Agreed, lots of blame to go around, but Mbeki does not have the excuse of large pharma in many cases.
For instance S.Africa was offered free kits that may be given to pregnant mothers which massively reduce the chances of them passing AIDS to their kids. All it had to do was inject the women.

Unlike many advanced treatments this could be administered by anyone competent to use a syringe.
S.Africa under Mbeki turned them down flat.

Pharm outfits are not always to blame. Many treatments require refrigeration of the drugs, and/or for them to be given at closely controlled intervals with a skilled person watching for side effects.
Nor are they responsible for the way that many drugs donated to crap countries are stolen and sold back to rich countries.

Go look up the % of African countries who have a vastly higher "security" budget than one for health.

You mean like the US does?

i agree that pharma companies are not responsible for all the bad things that happen aorund drugs in Africa, but they haven't exactly covered themselves in glory in protecting their IP rights at the expense of poor people all over the southern hemisphere.

But they are not exclusively to blame, any more than Mbeki is

difference is that as the successor to Mandela, Mbeki gets not 1/10th the kicking he deserves.

DC - but the fact remains that since the free drugs HAVE been available to pregnant women (infact all people) rates of HIV amongst pregnant woman has increased......

Is that a serious statement ?
Do you also believe in crystal healing and homeopathy ? Why are so so blindly supportive of this creep ?

Neonatal infection from AIDS is a relatively small % of the total, so all by itself it can't stop the increase.
What you are saying in effect is that during the Blitz firefighters actually made things worse because the European bombers often dropped incendiaries faster than they could be put out.

Have you ever done any maths at any level of any kind ?

Mbeki is an idiot. He sees Mugabe as a buddy from the apartheid era - and will stick by him come what may.

I get it. They were once both fighting for the same thing. Independence. But both countries now have it. They may both have been left a legacy of shite with many, many issues to deal with. But for people who fought for freedom for their people, they're both doing a really good job screwing their people over.

At least Mbeki stopped the Zimbabwe police in taking Henry Olonga at the World Cup - but I suppose that wouldn't have looked too good, would it?

Fear J&J is right and that's why Mbeki is choosing to be complicit in this murderous regime.

I agree too, sadly.

I think the term you're looking for is "accomplice" helping the Zimbawean government to look good is not exactly the right thing to do.

I think Mbeki was worried about how he would have looked allowing HO to be arrested on SA soil rather than helping Zimbabwe to look good.

HO is a total hero IMO.

But yes, 'accomplice' is a good term for him.

For Mbeki, I mean.

South Africa's people don't want to remain silent on this. I hope Kikwete (the Tanzanian president) has some luck but I very much doubt it. I also hope the EU/US block the families of the Zim government coming over to Europe/US which is what they all do at the moment (because, of course, who would want to live there under Mugabe).

It is so so sad. Zimbabwe is such a beautiful country with wonderful people and it's all being destroyed by this despot.