Did you see the article about babies photographed in the womb from 12 weeks?

[lisalisa]

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Amazing

Just another story to add to this lisalisa ther ewas an article in the Sunday times on the weekend about a baby born at 25 weeks days before his mother was due to have an abortion for medical reasons( her life was threatened if she had continued with the pregnancy. the baby is breathing on its own and is doing fine - it does make you think. I am the same as you I do believe in choice for women but after watching the Channel 4 docu I found my heart in conflict with my head! Its such a tough one but I do think they need to reduce the time limit for sure. I really wonder at women waiting until 21 weeks to get a termination for anything other than medical reasons - its seems that they musn't be sure of what they are doing if it has taken them so long to reach that decision - the baby is moving etc. The docu never answered that question.

Oh I saw this on TV last night. The pictures were amazing. I had never really considered a 12 week old to look and behave quite like that before.

where was this article lisalisa?
I know this is going to be a heated debate and for everyone who says no to abortion, there will be a harrowing tale of a situation when abortion was the only option, but... I don't believe in abortion/termination for me. I don't think i have the right to impose my decision on others but agree with lisalisa, it should be for very very valid reasons.

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www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1159421,00.html

Thats the link for Sunday Times article - sorry can't do it properly!!

Any "cut-off" point for abortion is always going to be arbitary though. Clearly we're already at the point where it is legally permissible to abort a foetus which could potentially survive outside the womb.

Personally I have much sympathy with the Warnock report, which looked into the use of embryos back in the 1980s. They came to the conclusion that it would be unethical to experiment with embryos of 14 days or more, for reasons including the fact that they could not prove that after that point that the foetus may not feel pain (can't remember what it is called, but something like the neural cord or something starts to form at that stage). Of course this isn't particularly helpful in the pro-choice world, as a woman would only just know that she is pregnant at the 14 day stage.

But then in reality if we are terminating a pregnancy it is never in the foetus's best interests.

I had 2 weekly scans with my first pg. Up to 8 weeks pg the foetus didn't look real. I was pg with a tadpole at 10 weeks, but there was a baby at 12 weeks.

Sunday Times article

And to have to terminate once you start to feel movements must be a heartbreaking experience...

Thanks Tinker - how do you do that?

eefs, it's in the Daily Mail today.

I saw it last night in th Evening standard and TBH it bought a tear to my eye. For 2 reasons really. Firstly for the babies and secondly for the women who have had abortions reading the article. The 15 week old feotus yawning was particulary hard to see.

I thank god that I'm not one of those woman.

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The pictures are here - absolutely extraordinary

Nice pictures, I was very chocked to learn that a baby can be aborted up to 24 weeks. Having a chance of being viable I don't see why mothers/doctor can decide over his/her right to live, the phrase "my body, my choice" seems horribly wrong after seeing these pictures.

I though it was acceptable to have an abortion provided it was on the early stages, this photographs made me think that even at 12 weeks the fetus is already an individual.

The photos are amazing - I'm sure I've seen similar ones before and been stunned.

The reason the foetus can survive so early now is because of advances in medical science. What happens if science progresses even further to allow an even younger foetus to develop outside the womb and survive? Do you keep putting the legal limit for abortion down?

I'm not sure what the answer is. I have always been pro-choice and I stand by that. Personally, having seen DSs at the 12 week nuchal scan, I'm not sure I could go through with an abortion but you can never be certain what your circumstances will be at the time.

a baby can be terminated up to birth chandra - for medical reasons (either the mother's health or serious disability- problem is no-one has defined serious disability...)

My sister was offered a termination at 30 weeks because the baby she was carrying was almost certain to have Downs and he had a serious heart problem. She decided against however and he's a lovely little boy! But yes, terminations can be offered very late. There was an uproar not long ago about a late termination because of a cleft palate wasn't there? I think that was around 24 weeks or something? I don't think a cleft palate constitutes a serious medical reason and that's why a vicar has been allowed to take the doctors to court. There's a fine line I guess. But I bet the doctors have to make some heart-breaking decisions too. My sister says that although they offered her the termination, and would have carried it out if she had said yes, they obviously didn't want to. One week a surgeon might be performing life-saving surgery on a fetus in the womb, the next week he might be aborting one - I don't envy them that job!

oh, one more thing, about the legal limit for abortions. That was set in the '50s apparently when they didn't know as much about fetal development as they do now. There is a call to lower the limit for abortions as science has advanced and we now know much more about fetal development, and a prem baby has much higher changes of surviving outside the womb now. They should revise the law to fit in with medical advances and new knowledge.

Rhubarb - re: the cleft palate case - my understanding is there is no way an abortion would be done at that late stage unless there were other reasons for it. Cleft palate is indicative of more serious problems and no-one has access to the mother's medical records so no-one knows the facts other than the professionals involved in this decision.

I agree these pictures are amazing - I too am pro-choice but I think there is a new debate needed about what the reality of that choice means.

I'll get shot down for saying this, but I don't see the connection between pretty pics of unborn babies/fetuses and banning abortion. We already knew that fetuses are developing in the womb, obviously, so what's new?
I just don't see how any of us has the right to tell someone else what to do with her body. Forcing someone to continue with an unwanted pregnancy is cruel and ineffective; do we really want to go back to the days of back street abortionists who kill women and leave babies horribly deformed? Or the days when women were victims of their own biology, 'barefoot and pregnant and chained to the kitchen sink'.
As for reducing the limit, what's the point of 20 week scans if you can't take action as a result?
Yes, fetuses are important but I just don't see that they are more important than a real, live woman. The suggestion that they are is really demeaning to women.

agree with you eddm, it's a bit like people who eat meat but never give it a 2nd thought until they actually see how it's done (or at least the abbatoir paraphernalia etc). (she said as a meat-eater)

Yes, as Soupy points out; one day it'll be possible to keep a foetus developing outside the womb pretty well from the point of conception. But that won't on its own change the reality of living with an unwanted pregnancy.

but, eddm, are you saying that a foetus is LESS important than a mother? I too found these pictures fascinating. My personal stance is anti-abortion although I sympathise and understand certain circumstances where a woman will opt for it. I agree with eddm that we arent really learning anything new here - we already know that a foetus is developing from the minute of conception. But you only have to read this thread to see the effect of the photos,it has made people think and possibly re-evaluate their attitude to abortion particularly the time scale aspect. I find the term 'pro-choice' completely misleading as let's face it, it doesn;t take the baby's choice into account at all.

I am and always have been pro choice. I don't feel that anyone can force a woman to proceed with an unwanted pregnancy, and I am sure that no woman ever makes the decision lightly. However, this has also forced me to re think and I do agree that the limit should be lowered. Once a baby can be viable outside the womb aborting it should be banned IMO.