mothers with young children are the most discriminated against at work

[paddingtonbear1]

I haven't actually found this in my company, and it's very small - only 18 employees. But I can imagine if I looked for another job, I might find it hard to get one, being a mother still under 40. I couldn't believe some of the comments in the 'have your say' on the bbc website though - most people seem to think that women who can't afford to stay at home shouldn't have kids at all! That would be me then! I don't think in this day and age, with mortgages and other rising costs, that's practical. I don't take advantage though, fortunately dd isn't sick very often, and dh does his share.
I think most of the people making the comments were men, or people with no kids...

pp, that's great. My exhusband doesn't help either financially or practically. It certainly makes it harder.

My housekeeper is off for 4 weeks this summer - we were just talking about the dates. She does that every summer with her children and husband to visit relatives and that's fine with me because she's been here for years, is never late, is so helpful and never ill. If someone is good then you make allowances to keep them. In practice that is what most employers do.

I think there's a huge difference between having under 5s and the rest of your life, actually. The hardest time for us was when we had 3 under 4, both worked full time and I was 26 so not much money or power or control. I said I have 5 but 3 are at university although they are still very demanding in terms of time and money actually , every day there is something with one of them. I should probably really say I only have two for practical working mother purposes though, the 2 at home.

Oh Xenia, can't you find a middle ground with this issue than blaming women for their own misfortune? If it were up to you and most of the women (because it still would be women who would choose to do it the majority of the time, driven by fundamental biological and psychological processes) only spent 6 weeks, just enough time to stop them bleeding all over the workplace, there would be even more endemic PND than there is now.

Simply because you made those choices and they worked for you, doesn't mean you should then have no respect for women who feel differently. I, and many feminists on here, respect you the choices you have made, in fact define the ability to make those choices as a central tenet of feminism; but I don?t respect your need to constantly disparage those who make different choices from you.

Not had time to read the whole thread so apologies if I'm repeating what has already been said.

These childless people who think that working mothers take advantage and get too many benefits already - who do they think are going to be paying taxes when they're older to pay for the police force and health service etc etc - yes thats right our children

and wiping their bums and changing their incontinence pads too....

MT,
"there would be even more endemic PND than there is now"

I don't think that returning to work causes PND.

No, being forced into situations you do not want to be in does, whether that be in the home, isolated, or at work away too soon from your baby. There is a huge middle ground here that the government (and Xenia) just don't seem to want to see - and that's about offering mothers real choices not bitter compromises.

There are many triggers for PND (aside from the obvious hormone shifts etc of childbirth).

Stress and duress is one of them. Some women may feel pressured to return to work earlier than they'd like, so, it is possible. Certainly the pressures of going grievance with my work added to my PND. However, I dont think it is straightforward enough to predict an upward trend if all women returned to work 6 weeks after giving birth.

There is also the added issue of the fact that women who have PND may not be able to return to work for some time. So if all women were expected to return after just 6 weeks, you would find that long term sickness would increase in proportion to that.

Ah, I can predict it - I just have to do the research now to back it up!

ahem, or test it, I mean

Which bit are you replacing with "test it"???

'back it up'

a bit presuptious and not very scientific

LOL!

How are you going to do the research?

First I think you should prove that PND even exists.

just kidding.

I'll put it on my 'to do' list VVV

Eleusis, though I'm sure there are some people on here who would like to assert that PND was just as state of mind and not chemistry.

I must admit the concept is foreign to me, but of course I just count myself luck. My mum thinks there's no such thing as pmt. She told me that once, and I suggested that if she went around saying that in public she shouldn't be surprised if someone slaps her. Some things you should just be thankful for.

But, of course I was joking. I'm not really suggesting it doesn't exist.

However, I do think staying home with a baby contributes to it. For me anyway.

That's a silly side point. Women trapped at home with a baby and not culturally allowed to return to work are more likely to get PND.

As a femininst I respect parents who as a couple choose the father (or even the mother!) might stay home but I don't think it's healthy if it's always the woman - that can't be a good feminist position - I am female therefore automatically I make in effect a 40 year career sacrifice (because in many jobs that is the result of time off to have children and then to be the main domestic person until they get well into their teens). Pity the heading wasn't parents the most discriminated against showing that working fathers as much as mothers have poor reputations and attendance records.

The huge pity is that those of us who turn up, work hard and done skive off when we have children and don't manage our domestic life appropriately get tarred with the same brush as these mothers who don't play the game fair. In fact really the headline should be - Mothers who after childbirth mess their employers around end up causing all reliable parents to suffer. The people to blame here are not the poor employers but either the legislators for giving women better rights than men, the parents for conditioning their daughters to think their role is as housewife/part time worker or most of all those parents who give us all a bad name.

Next time someone asks for flexible working perhaps they would just sit back and think how they damage their daughter's prospects as a prospective employee wanting to be taken seriously who will work the hours the job needs.

That is such a bitter post.

"The huge pity is that those of us who turn up, work hard and done skive off when we have children and don't manage our domestic life appropriately get tarred with the same brush as these mothers who don't play the game fair."

What game is that? Xemia, you chose to work so why are you bitter about women that choose to look after their children? Or was it more an expectation than a choice? I don't know, something doesn't add up here. Why are you so angry at SAHM's? Can't you even see the alternate view as just as reasonable? Why be a slave to the market and neglect your chldren if you can lobby for a better balance?

Or is it that it would be too late for you personally so you begrudge it to others?

trapped at home !!!
PMSL!!

I've never felt so free as when I gave up work for a spell at home!

"That's a silly side point. Women trapped at home with a baby and not culturally allowed to return to work are more likely to get PND." Says who?

Eleusis, I have a fantastic sense of humour, but, please be careful about making jokes like that on here. PND can be a very serious illness, and those in the throes of it wont see the funny side - at best.

MT, yes it's hugely unfair on working parents who don't call in sick a lot, who move heaven and earth always to be there to find employers won't hire them because a load of other women workers who work for pin money and at the drop of a hat use any excuse not to turn in to the office cause employers to think all women workers are the same. That is the cause of the problem. If parents were as reliable at work as non parents employers would not hesitate to hire them.

So I blame parents who don't get their act together or if they can't manage it who still work and don't do the child rearing or the working well.

"it's hugely unfair on working parents who don't call in sick a lot, who move heaven and earth always to be there to find employers won't hire them because a load of other women workers who work for pin money and at the drop of a hat use any excuse not to turn in to the office cause employers to think all women workers are the same"

Shouldnt employers, as part of their job to move a business forward and make it successful, take action on those that are deemed as "swinging the lead", instead of assuming that "all women workers are the same" (easy option), and take more care of who they employ, and undertake a responsibility to check references properly, appraise staff and remunerate appropriately?

Take more care of who they recruit, not employ.

hi everyone. in my experience working parents - especially mums - are the most effective and diligent at work because they have to be. nothing like focussing the mind than knowing you've got to leave at 6 sharp to get to your childminder.

i'm all for lively debate and different opinions, but it's sad when mums knock each other when everyone else is lining up to make our lives, er, a "challenge." (hate that phrase. such corporate speak for'we all know this is shite, but let's dress it up.' at the risk of sounding like a miss world contestant, can't we all show a bit of solidarity?

Still not had time to read it all but had to say when is Xenia going to join the real world?

It must be wonderful to have a proper job to enable you to emply a nanny, unlike the rest of us who obviously don't have proper jobs. Even a temp nanny for a day costs around £80 - you may not think thats a lot of money, but for some people they are barely making enough to get by so really can't afford that £80 (by the way that is at the lower end of the scale and I know this from working at a nanny agency and 10 years of working as a nanny). Also if your child is ill would you be happy to leave them with a stranger (as that is in effect what you are suggesting that others should do), your child would feel so comforted.

Also re everyone being able to take a chunk of time off 3 times in their career - great idea, what happens if a woman decides that she never wants children takes her time off and then hits her mid 30's/40's and changes her mind or accidently gets pregnant?

You also seem to have a thing about women accepting sexism in the home - have you ever thought that some women may choose to be the one doing most of the childcare. My DH is wonderful and does more than his fair share, however at the moment he is the one with the better paid job and it makes more sense for me to take time off as and when needed, like now for instance, I'm not able to go back to work as my salary doesn't cover nursery fees, (let alone a nanny) for 2 children - it can't be a proper job!

Maybe I have got you totally wrong and if I'd read the rest of the thread would have realised this (if so I apologise!), but some of your earlier comments made my blood boil and I just wonder what planet you're on?

"Pity the heading wasn't parents the most discriminated against showing that working fathers as much as mothers have poor reputations and attendance records.

The huge pity is that those of us who turn up, work hard and done skive off when we have children and don't manage our domestic life appropriately get tarred with the same brush as these mothers who don't play the game fair."

Where is your proof for this? Why are you assuming that working mothers are more absent from work than anyone else? The report finds that employers discriminate against women with children. The report headline did not say "Women with children skive off work more often than anyone else"

What it means is employers make the same assumptions about working mothers as you do - based completely on myths. I can't find any up to date stats but a report in 2004 showed absenteeism from work was highest amongst young females with NO children.

And it's all very well saying that an employer will go to the ends of the earth to accommodate working mothers who 'play the game' - which I don't think is true anyway. But I'm assuming that most of the discrimination takes place when mothers are trying to apply for a new job. Regardless of their education, skills and previous job performance - a lot of would-be-working mothers are written off the minute their CV lands on the desk of HR.