Britain's new cultural divide is not between Christian and Muslim, Hindu and Jew. It is between those who have faith and those who do not.

[bossykate]

fascinating article in today's guardian.

here

Yes, I accept that you do not think those things about hell and damnation, and I doubt Sophable's vicar would either (though he might still be having worrying thoughts about sex magick ) but let's face it, plenty of religious people have done so in the past, and plenty do so now. The placards on London streets during the Mohammed cartoon furore revealed that. And lots of nice apparently moderate religious people DO think atheists will suffer eternal punishment.

right well Aloha you have issued me with a challenge. I will have to do a bit of research to find the theology that Dawkins does not address [and i am pretty confident there is quite a bit that he does not] . But it may take me some time what with scrubbing out banana stains from the carpet and entertaining ds relentlessly [now that Cbeebies is off the cards] I will do it though!

Yes, I know what you mean about the 'evidence' for life on other planets. But my astrophysicist friend often talks to me about the stuff that is still unexplained about creation [I am not pitching for a seven day Genesis job BTW] and there is still so much we do not know I find it fascinating just what the possibilities are. Can't remember who said it, but it was somebody quite cool, who said we understand God about as much as a Dog understands Quantum Physics. i quite like that. Anyway, my brain probably fell out long ago.

Lol about the vicar and sex magick. My dad [vicar] would probably love all that. How hideously embarrassing [for me I mean].

ahhhhhh...ruty.......you've arrived.....

I was making a hash of what you're making a much better fist of further down...

aloha, fwiw, I believe that god/the unspeakable, as in no words for it other has many many faces including the norse gods.

I have experienced in a real way what grace means. I experience a visceral longing to return to that glimpse of what can be even typing the words.

experience is proof isn't it. I've lived it. and although I cannot convince you, I know that god exists because of personal experience.

A sense of sublime and powerful connection, without any roots in mind altering substances or psychological distress.

The brain is a wonderful thing Sophable. Don't underestimate its power.

Um, I don't mean you are being stupid, I mean we are capable of wonderful thoughts and feelings all by ourselves.

yes and i am more than able to determine for myself whether it is 'me' feeling amazing or something else.

just like i know when i'm dreaming and when i'm not...especially after the fact.

is there any room for mystery in your life? has nothing happened to you that has shaken you to your core because it cannot be explained in terms that you understand?

Hello soph. I have had a glimpse of that too. Not for a while though. It is difficult to remember what it was like. and hard to express without sounding wanky [you expressed it rather well tho] and then there are people i have met whose inner peace and light have blown me away.
It is a strange old situation.

No, there hasn't been anything spooky at all.
I'm not sure what you think happened to you.

my guard came down...i 'gave up struggling' (v buddhist) and whoooosh in it came!

a knowledge of my own god-ness. the concept of 'me' as distinct from 'they' vanished for a while.

the humanists are absolutely right....we are god, we are beautiful and amazing enough. but that is not all there is to it...god is other than us. more than.

I believe.

I don't want to get drawn in again, but I do like the idea of the cat that used to be on the opening credits of Coronation Street. It had no flaming idea that it was on telly or what coro was, yet there it was, on the telly. I think our level of knowledge, compared to what there is to know, is miniscule - just like cat's. Radiowaves existed before we devised the instruments to detect them. Sometimes you perceive the effects of an entity before you discover any hard evidence for it.

Yes Sophable, something similar happened to me.

Was it connected with therapy or sex?

Maybe we are all Corrie cats, droile.

I agree we have so much left to discover, but I don't think that's a reason to say, 'it's a mystery so it must be god'. Just about everything that was attributed to gods in the past - thunder, the sun disappearing and reappearing, babies being conceived, winter death and spring renewal, is now understood and the supernatural explanations are now 'myths'. The more we discover, the more supernatural explanations are shown to be wrong.

not therapy not sex.

loss really. or at least lots of things i wanted not happening and then a huge letting go....surrender??

am i sounding like a wanker yet???

['yet???' they all cry in disbelief!]

I believe we are, Scummy, I believe we are .

aloha, you know, i don't think we are as far away from each other as you do....i totally believe thar science will discover and understand god someday. that's why droile's cat analogy is so apt. cutting edge science will appear primitive and ignorant in not a very long time.

um... not a wanker, no. Just a bit airy fairy and earnest which can be good. Sounds quite gestalty and jungian...

But i don't think God is supernatural. i don't think there is a division between God and ourselves and the universe/s. I think the more science discovers the more we realise we don't know. It just might not be within our ability to pinpoint what God is or if it exists. but it is safe to say there are a hell of a lot of unanswered questions, and that is why it think it is better to keep an open mind and risk your brain falling out.

Cool. I like the idea of being a corrie cat.

Hey soph I'm the wanker thanks very much. Trying to steal my thunder. Tut.

both of which i'm into scummy.

love jungian theory.

Rhian is quite right. I'm not going to stop using a term that Moslems quite freely use about themselves because a Chinese undergrad says so.
I have emails from Moslem friends who use the term (mostly in arguments surprisingly), and many Moslem groups call themselves Moslem groups.
I find absolutely no corrobarative evidence that this is not simply someone trying to be offended.
I'm quite happy to say things that are offensive about any religion, but this is not me doing so.

I've had those types of experiences too, sophable. I do believe in an external, supranatural God, which is also in the God within everything - the sacredness of everything. I've had (very rarely) visions of things that have helped me to understand how God might be. I've had (again, very rarely) premonitions of evil - once I saw evil in a room where someone was. The most common feeling I've had though is that of God being within me. Every time something like this has happened I get a sort of inner vibration and it's unmistakable to me that it comes from without.

Now I sound totally mad but there you are - I'm not going to lie about it or keep my head down. It's why for all science' rationality I still believe. I am quite sure there are scientific explanations as to my experiences - in fact I've heard a few - but that doesn't change how I feel about them.

Science is yet to convince me that God doesn't exist.