In The Times today: Blind feminism has hurt our children

[twelveyeargap]

Blind feminism has hurt our children

There is hope otter. I think the status of SAHM has increased rapidly in recent years. I know many many women who are incredibly envious of SAHMs, and I know many who are very proud of their vital role in their children's lives.

I suspect that within about 5 years, WOHMs (like me) will be really frowned upon. We already are to a great extent.

here here grumpy. (or shoudl that be "hear hear"?)

Otter, fwiw my mum was a SAHM and taught me everything I know about feminism. But i know exactly what you mean, I even feel a bit like that now I am going back part time. i can feel my friends looking at me a bit pityingly thinking "ahh, where has all that ambition gone?"

DP on the other hand is looking at me green with envy.

The headline is daft, the article makes sense (and I doo have my 2 year old in nursery).

So, Cloudhopper, can I assume that you, like me, are currently at work? I really must get off mumsnet and do something!

I agree, Grumpy.

Well almost. I am currently enjoying the last fortnight of my year's maternity leave before I go back to work.

My poor older dd went into daycare at 5mo and I can still wind myself up into a frenzy of worry about that if I let myself.

Then I realise all the other things I have done wrong as a parent and it seems to pale into insignificance.

Surely politicians use nannies as much because they work very unpredictable hours as because they think it's better than group daycare? I can't see a day nursery which closes at 6 being much use if you have to attend a late vote at the House of Commons.

Ah, Cloudhopper. Make the most of it.

I went back (to a 60 hour week ) when DD1 was 4 months old - had to. No money at all to live on, never mind luxuries like, oh clothes, or anything. Went back when DD2 5 months old, but only PT then. Much easier to come to terms with. At least I didn't cry when I left her in the morning because I knew I would be back in 5 hrs.

I agree with custy and others - the "feminism" headline is just plain misleading.

What I am baffled about, though, is this: if day nurseries are such a bad thing - and one in Denmark is held up as an example - then how come all these Northern European countries such as the Scandinavian ones where masses of pre-schoolers are in daycare, scored so much better than the UK in the recent UNICEF report?

Oh Christ, I've looked in and I'm getting off this thread and off MN today. I feel too guilty for wanting to work and liking my work and not wanting to be a SAHM.

It's funny actually. We all have different priorities. My DS is 21 months old, and I am now begining to think he really should go to nursery. He's with a nanny all day, but I think a nursery would be good for him at this age. The problem is I can't really afford a nanny and a couple of nursery sessions a week. So, I'll probably have to stick with the nanny.

Quite Dinosaur. DH and I do what is right for our family and have nothing to feel guilty about, especially as our DTS are happy!

Dinosaur - absolutely, I think that;s a very good point.

PMSL at this comment from the Times website:

"Group daycare is not only poor, it is frightening. Babies left to cry all day with no attention. Young, inexperienced badly paid staff who stand in corners doing their nails and recovering from the previous nights drunken antics.... Do you really know what goes on behind the closed doors of your child's nursery?"

I must say it's very clever how every time I go to pick dd up from nursery they hide the nailvarnish bottles in an instant, shut the crying babies in a soundproof cupboard, jump down on the floor and pretend to be playing with the children - they somehow manage to give me the impression it's a happy, calm place where the children are thriving

Message withdrawn

Of course there are crap nurseries, but it's just ignorant when they assume they're all like that.
Come to that there must be nannies from hell as well.

Yes MI, you naughty individual you!

Any article that includes the word 'wimmin' put my back up instantly .

kathy - i thought that quote was odd too. At the nursery we use they all seem much to busy for nail varnish and chat about hangovers.... From a woman who never went to work when her kids were tiny - so how does she know all this about nurseries??? Do you think she heard it somewhere?

My kids have been to afterschool club 3 times in their entire school career...and guess what! They keep asking to go back. They won't and I can see that going every day is a quite different ballgame but even so it's not always such a terrible thing.

I don't disagree with the central premise of the 'affluenza' that the country suffers from but I think there are targets more worthy of blame than working parents and childcare.

My dd went to a sure start nursery as it is attached to the school I teach in and it was excellent and the staff were very well qualified and experienced.

My dd has to go to after school club and she always says she enjoys it and sometimes even sulks when I try and be a good mum and leave work eary to collect her early. But I ahve been very worried about the effect that my working has had on our family and I am currently trying to getan au pair. When I said to dd would you rather go to after school club or have a lady collect you from school at 3.15 and come home with her to have your tea a bit earlier she said straight away I want to come home.

I know that the hours that dp and I work have a negative affect on dd, when I was almost a SAHM dd had a quite blissful life and I know she preferred it. Life was calm , she was my priority and we had time for her as when dp came home tea was ready, the house was organised and clean and we had family time. Now we are rushing about, trying to cram everthing in in the hour we have together as a family. DD is taken to my mums everymorning half asleep in her pyjamas at 6.45 and without my mum I don't know whatwe would do. I don;t know if it is blind feminism or justplain selfishness and greed of dp and I but the way we live our lives does hurt our daughter but wearetoo selfish to do anything about it other than hire an unqualified young girl from Eastern Europe to do what we are not there to do.At least we have the wisdom not to inflict ourselves on any more children.

Have just made myself read this article. Agree that the title doesn't match some of the content.
I have big problems with Oliver James because of the conflict of interest inherent in his writing at the moment - he wants us all to believe that the only solution to our poor ranking in the UNICEF study is to buy his book, as bundle points out.
Anyway, I work in the public sector in London, so does my dh, we both have to work f/t. I'd happily give up if we could afford it. Neither of my children is aggressive or stressed IMO, as a result of their time in daycare.
Am pretty tired of middle-aged men with nice work-from-home careers bitching about the millions of us, men and women, whose work requires us to be somewhere else to earn the money to pay the bills
Perhaps we should all stop being teachers, social workers, healthcare professionals, police etc and all become counsellors like Mr James.

I don't like the article in a lot of respects, but I agree with more than half of what he would be saying if he were a half-decent writer.

James quotes Polly Toynbee, whose articles I read, and actually agree more with.
I really can't get my head round about how the subject of childcare is so controversial in this country. I do think a civilized country should offer good, accessible childcare to all (as well as the possibility of working more flexible hours). My children go p/t to nursery and it was a deliberate choice, because, apart from the odd translation, I don't really work. It was a deliberate choice because from age three they'd go for free, if we were in Italy. They are not stressed, they are fine.

I meant they'd go for free, and it'd be absolutely the norm to go to "asilo", even for those whose mothers/fathers don't work

franca, Kids go for free over here in the UK, too. once they turned 3 years of age...

ok, 5 sessions a week are funded for them!

it's 5 mornings. though, isn't it?