Passport checks considered for pregnant NHS patients

[LurkingHusband]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37621239

Pregnant patients could have to prove they are eligible for free NHS treatment by showing ID such as a valid passport, under plans being considered by one London hospital.
St George's says the checks would help tackle health tourism and would only be for non-urgent patients - emergency cases would get automatic care.
^It says such a move is in line with what guidelines recommend.
But critics say the checks could be potentially dangerous.^
St George's says it has a duty to use resources wisely, as well as provide care and treatment to patients requiring the hospital's services. The hospital has a high number of patients from overseas who are not eligible for NHS treatment.
The government said a pilot was a good idea and it would be keen to see the results.

(contd)

It is possible to precis the story as "The only thing worse than a foreigner, is a poor foreigner".

Totally agree with you unlucky.

" Well you can't go to the states and expect free health care why should we offer it"

because the UK is not the 'the states'....

I once presented myself to A&E with a very severe kidney infection, an OOH GP had told me on the phone just to go.

In the waiting area, you had to fill a form in confirming, country of birth, nationality, address, how long you'd been here and sign a declaration at the bottom that if it was later ascertained that you weren't eligible for treatment, you understood you;d be chased for the costs.

I dont know why all places don't do that tbh.

I can't imagine in any other country they would allow you to just access maternity care free of charge with no repercussions.

Inthedessert...

According to the ONS in 2011, in England and Wales (Scotland data is not included):

Of the 56.1 million usually resident population of England and Wales in 2011:

• 76 per cent (42.5million) held a UK passport
• 7.4 per cent (4.2 million) held a foreign passport only (of which 372,000 were Irish passports).
• 17 per cent (9.5 million) who stated they did not hold a passport.

I had DS2 at St Gs, I also work there. The maternity unit is horribly busy, I was in labour till 6 cm dilated in someone's office (no pain relief) , DH lied and said I was starting to push and then they finally found me a room, it smelt of detergent, some poor woman had probably just finished and been wheeled out. I heard that up to 10% of women who use ST Gs to give birth are not UK residents, and it's contributing to the excessive demands on the unit. FWIW it's not that unusual from what I see on at least one of my wards for non residents/ very recent arrivals/ people who are here illegally to access care at St Gs.
In any other European country, let alone the US you would need to pay for care. My GPs were French and in France you would be re- imbursed (based on a means tested sliding scale) but only if you have a "Carte Vitale" (equivalent of an NHS card) so really it's no mystery that people would choose free and safe healthcare here.
In summary, of course we should check eligibility, or accept that we are paying for the healthcare of 1000s of people who have never contributed.

This case springs to mind

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11832487/Nigerian-mother-let-off-145000-NHS-bill-after-birth-of-quins.html

Everyone should be checked for eligibility of NHS services at no cost. I am not a resident and always state this upfront. It is shocking the volume of people who I know who don't do this and live abroad. They return to the UK for medical treatment because they don't want to spend the money.

I would like to see an NHS health card for every resident. If you don't have one you can't get treatment without putting up a credit card and supplying identification documents unless it is an emergency. In cases of emergency, ID should be taken, including fingerprints, if no credit card is supplied.

My dad has been waiting since March for a biopsy. The long waits are because there are so many people abusing the NHS. It has to stop or the NHS won't make it.

In Spain all pregnant women and children under 18 are automatically eligible for full healthcare and rightly so. Under EU law. Another win for Brexit wankers.......pregnant women denied treatment because they are forrin.
what an embarrassing time to be British.

lostoldlogin2 The reality is that the NHS is about to seize because they do not have enough money to buy the resources they need. Part of that reason is because so many people come to the UK for healthcare who are not eligible for it. Nothing to be embarrassed about. How many people go to Canada/America/Middle East/ Far East without health insurance? Not very many because we all know the deal if we have an accident. Why should the UK be any different?

Agreed Want2b. All credit to Spain for their humanitarian approach, but is it really EU law to provide free healthcare to all comers if they are pregnant/ under 18? And even if it is, is it sustainable.
Furthermore many of the people accessing free healthcare are neither young nor pregnant, they have pre existing conditions such as renal failure / HIV / heart failure which they falsely claim only arise/ get diagnosed once they are here as they know you cannot get NHS treatment for pre exisiting conditions unless you qualify for NHS care.

we need fool-proof impossible to falsify ID cards (hurts me to say this as I was always anti Government over-kill) but the situation now is that there are no reliable checks on who anyone is - passports are next to useless as they do not show 'right of residence' and can be falsified and not everyone has them.
If you are legally resident in this country and have an ID card (renewed like a passport) then you are entitled to NHS treatment. Anyone could lie on a paper form that they are resident.

Mollie In Denmark DH has to provide his national insurance number (well their equivalent) and that determines if they are eligible to receive care. This is not a foolproof system but it does go a long way to at least eliminating people receiving care at no cost who are not in the system. For those in the system, random checks should be carried out so those people have to provide proof of residency (lease or mortgage statement along with 2 utility bills in their name plus an internal check against the electoral register) along with an automatic flag for someone claiming to be a resident who has previously stated they are not a resident.

A passport is not an identity document, it is a permit to travel.
A driving licence is not an identity document, it is a permit to drive.
Not everyone has either of them, and it's unfair to expect people to carry them about unless they are travelling abroad or driving. Especially if they are ill.

We do have NHS numbers in this country, which is a hangover from WW2 identity legislation, but we do not use them enough. I think it would be absolutely fine to be given a credit-card-sized thing with your NHS ID number on to show at medical appointments, or an adapted EHIC card which has the EU provision listed on it as well, and I can't imagine any British person thinking that was a big deal, even normally anti-ID types. If you have forgotten it, you should be asked to phone it through afterwards unless it's patently obviously a repeat appointment and that you clearly live here and have done so for over a year.

If medical personnel have reason to believe people would be at risk or that there would be a major problem trying to get hold of their NHS card/number, for example because they are away from home and have forgotten it, or in an abusive relationship, or are in A and E separated from their documents, staff should be able to tick a box and ignore the fact it's not there, but perhaps flag it for future reference, to be checked next time.

And the Nigerian woman with quins? The NHS has an annual budget of £116,400,000,000 which means she cost 0.000001% of that. Not exactly going to make a big difference to the nation's health, that shortfall.

Can I just say that in the US, women in active labour are entitled to free treatment as it is illegal to turn them away. NHS is just doing the same thing at St George's from the sound of it.

Boffin I hear what you are saying but the widespread abuse of the NHS is something that I am seeing much more now that I am a non-resident. Most of my friends stationed in the middle east return to the UK to deliver their babies and don't pay. They are not resident in the UK but claim to be only to return to the middle east 8 weeks after the baby has arrived.

I personally know of more than 10 women who have done this and their husbands have flown back to the UK for treatment too. The reason they do it is because the cost of private care is much more expensive and the quality isn't great. On an individual basis the cost isn't high but when you consider just how widespread this is I would expect it to be found to be a material amount.

We are residents in New Zealand. We have that stamp in our passport. We need to show that stamp when we apply for maternity care, register with a GP, enrol a child in school. It shows that we have a right, pay taxes, contribute, to the system which we are using.
When our son was born he became a citizen because he was born here AND we were resident. He wouldn't have got citizenship if we had just rocked up pregnant and delivered (paid or as an emergency).
All children need to show a birth certificate or other proof of right to education in NZ to enrol.
Had I returned to the UK to have my child I would not have been entitled to medical care because I am not resident there. If I go back on holiday and need to see a GP, I have to pay (and claim on my insurance) because I am not a resident. (This rankles a little as I did pay a lot of tax at the time I did live there, but them's the rules, I have chosen to reside elsewhere).

My (London) hospital is already doing this - the passport/driving licence was for photo ID and then they also asked for utility bills (or bank statements? I can't remember) to show residency. I'm sure, if you didn't have a passport or driving licence, they would work with you to find an alternative.

boffin I was sort of thinking that myself. If you are eligible for NHS treatment so get an NHS number, that number doesn't disappear if you leave and is still active when you return though. That said, there's no reason why something couldn't be changed to the NHS number system in order to bring it up to the necessary standard, and would probably be a lot easier/cost less than a compulsory ID system.

Every time I change GP (I've been unlucky with GP closures!) I have to reprove my eligibility for NHS treatment. It's not uncommon to be asked, but there's potential there for systems to all talk to each other at least.

Want2BSupermum - flying back to your own country to give birth is about protecting your DCs' citizenship rights as much as anything. It really is best to be born in your own country.

Bobo yes, there are citizenship factors to where you give birth, but if you choose to leave the UK, and want to give birth there, you should pay for a private birth in the UK, rather than rock up, with no maternity notes, as all yours are from a different country, and give birth for free on the NHS.

bobo I know all about citizenship issues. My DC are not British because they were born here in the US and I was born in Canada. If I had wanted them to have been British through birth I could have returned home and paid non-resident rates. To expect treatment for free when you are not a resident is plain wrong.

Actually, I think that there are very good arguments for allowing British mothers to give birth for free on the NHS wherever they reside. It provides protection for them and their DC. Many mothers do not "choose" to live abroad.

And given how a ridiculous referendum is about to strip all sorts of people of residency rights they thought were irreversible, protecting one's citizenship ought to be at the forefront of everyone's mind.

bobo Are you kidding me? So I was born in Canada and happened to be residing in the US when my kids were born making them American/Canadian/Danish. If I was so concerned about their British nationality I would have moved back to the UK to deliver and raise my children.

As it is, we are looking at moving back to the UK. There are rules in place that allow me to sponsor my children into the country and after a certain period of time they are entitled to British citizenship. There is not one single argument that I can think of for allowing anyone resident outside of the UK to be entitled to use the NHS at no cost for any service.

The reasons my friends have come back to deliver in the UK is because it doesn't cost them anything beyond the flight and that their mothers are there to help them after the baby arrives. These girls all have the financial means to pay but they save their tax free money earned abroad (most are in the middle east).

About time, and not just for pregnant women. The NHS should not provide treatment to all comers regardless. It's a finite resource. Would those people get away with it in the US or other countries?