so because we're the catholic church, we should be allowed to discriminate

[wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe]

or we'll close our

adoption agencies

What do you mean by 'certain views are accetable'?

Do you mean certain sexual preferences? Or certain views about sexual preferences?

you can certainly dish it out aloha, but you can't take it can you?

And why on earth does it matter whether one 'chooses' one's sexual orientation or not. A red herring IMO.

bk, i believe catholicism has incredibly beautiful, intellectual, enlightened and liberally minded traditions that the last papacy and unfortnately from the looks of things, this one have squashed and sidelined. catholicism has wonderful things to say about religious mysticism, the sexual ecstasy of that, the primacy of woman (Mary), and the exquisite nature of ancient ritual. Unfortunately these aspects have been subsumed in a morass of right wing, reactionary idiocy of late. I gave up when I heard JP2 preaching to impoverished south americans that it was their holy duty to have nothing to do with contraception. you'd think vatican 2 had never happened. When a pope of similar holiness and stature as John 23rd arrives, I'll prick up my ears along with everyone else that is severely f*cked off with the vatican atm.

I beg to differ on the lack of evidence, Sophable, though I agree it is controversial. This is interesting here

and this

And this here

and this

Did I say anything personal about you? No. Unless you are secretly a Church of England bishop.

i think there's plenty wrong with the catholic church. but vile, hateful comments like that really upset me - they do seem to include all catholics not just the bigots. and yes there are of course bigots in the church. but there are also prejudiced, bigoted atheists. atheists have also caused wars, abused children etc etc. i have taken part in this discussion - one of my comments was that debate is important where rights collide. nasty, venomous comments don't enhance the debate.

Well, I find this grotesque discrimination against homosexuals by ALL THE BLOODY CHURCHES profoundly upsetting and repellent and utterly morally wrong in every single way.

it matters becky, because the catholic church expect gay people to supress their sexuality and remain celibate for their whole lives or go to hell [or certainly not be part of the church communion.] If they asked that of heterosexuals how would you feel?

I actually find it vile and hateful.

bk, nick robinson's blog v interesting,esp re: blair's wife telling him what to do (since I saw NR at mass on sunday..not sure if he's actually catholic though, may be just his wife)

Aloha. My point was rather that we shouldn't be discriminating on the grounds of sexuality, whether chosen or not. IMO it makes no difference whether one chooses one sexuality, although I certainly didn't so I can't imagine how one would. Why someone is homo- or heterosexual is unimpoertant to me.

Or at least, we shouldn't be discriminating on the basis of homo/heterosexuality.

I find bringing other issues, such as paedophilia, into this discussion misleading and unhelpful. Yet somehow it always seems to come up when homosexuality is discussed

Sorry. Not Aloha. Ruty

Unimportant in this context that is.
I actually think it would be quite interesting to look into the mechanisms underlying sexual orientation.
(Sorry Martina)

What I don't understand - really, really, dont' understand - is why people say, 'I don't agree with what the church is doing. I am ashamed of it', and when I say, 'No it is vile and dicriminatory and they are bigots', they then turn round and say 'how dare you criticise my church' and pile on the personal insults.

sorry becky misunderstood.
I don't quite get the paedophilia thing, why it always gets brought up either.

When I criticise Tony Blair, for example, loads of Labour voters don't feel the need to take it so personally.

1. I've never said don't criticise my church
2. I think we're completely square on the personal insults front.

so I suppose what we need to know is: is calling someone bigoted, in itself, bigoted?

Ok.
I am a catholic. I don't agree with the church's stance on homosexuality. I think it is rather bigoted.
Criticise away Aloha. God knows I do. And many others too.

I have NOT personally insulted you at ALL. I have said NOTHING whatsoever about you. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Actually, sod it. Have the thread to yourself.

Huh?

I don't think catholics dislike criticism per se but, speaking for myself at least as I am clearly one, get frustrated because they perceive that the criticism generally stems from the failure to really understand what catholicism is all about. The church's teachings do not merely stem from some 'bigoted' whims of a bunch of decrepit out of touch geezers in Rome who lay down the law - faithful catholics believe in a morality that stems from God and hence cannot be changed to conform to the spirit of the day.

So by all means rail against the perceived injustice of church teachings but please argue in the context of whether or not these teachings are compatible with Jesus' teachings/the bible etc. Those that govern the church have no power to alter them.

but it is those who govern the church that made the rules up originally roobie, so only they can revoke them. And many eminent theologians would argue that there is not much case for such discrimation against gay monogomous relationships. Not that they would change them, i mean there are still catholic missionaries that tell people in Africa that they shouldn't wear condoms and condoms do not protect against AIDS. I am not singling out Catholicism BTW, I usually spend my time berating the Anglican church.