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Brexit the very real risk to women's working rights.

73 replies

Tomtomato · 12/06/2016 20:46

Brexit the very real risk to women's working rights.
I work as a Human Resources Consultant, while not an employment lawyer i do have a good understanding.
There seems to be a lot of misleading information on social media concerning Brexit or Not.
In my view the EU has done a considerable amount to improve the lives of working women (see the bottom of this post) and a lot of this is at great risk if we leave the EU.
I don't wish to tell you how to vote, but all women really need to know what they're voting for.

This is a very good summary of what's at risk
touchstoneblog.org.uk/2016/05/10-top-brexiteers-explain-theyre-danger-rights-work/

While in some instance, UK rights are better than EU rights, the EU rights underpin those rights. Employment law is very complex, which is why it is easy to confuse people. Take the EU rights away and there is nothing to stop UK rights being water-down or abolished.
Most at risk are rights for part time workers, agency workers which particularly affects women and TUPE. If you trust Gove & IDS not to privatise your hospital or academic your schools, and leave the TUPE rights along, you're a lot more trustworthy than me.

There is a meme going round on social media which proclaims the wonders of British rights, it has Union Jacks on it. Brexiters hold it to their chest like a lucky talisman, but it is misleading, confusing and fundamentally incorrect. Here a QC Sean Jones rebuts it.

medium.com/@seanjones11kbw/i-logged-into-twitter-and-someone-had-posted-this-image-into-my-timeline-5596de6f6311#.socgzp8c2
If you imagine the worst case scenario of IDS, Gove and Boris, the threat of a wilful removal of hard won rights will be slashed. Please read this
Listen out every time you hear the words being competitive, or EU Red Tape, these are your rights.

www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2016/06/525326.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Here is a summary from Institute of Personnel and Development
www.cipd.co.uk/hr-resources/voice/04/real-impact-eu-uk-employment.aspx?utm_medium=email&utm_source=cipd&utm_campaign=cipdupdate&utm_term=945986&utm_content=270416-5725-9747--20160427084831-the%20likely%20impact%20of%20a%20%E2%80%98leave%E2%80%99%20vote%20on%20employment%20law

A significant body of employment law in the UK that derives from the EU, and over the past decades this has affected workers’ rights across the economy. For individual rights the main areas include working time and annual holidays, rights for women (for example equal pay), family friendly policies (for example pregnant workers, parental leave and so on), anti-discrimination legislation (for example equal treatment) and atypical workers (for example agency workers). For collective rights, there are three main legislative areas: collective redundancies and TUPE, European Works Councils, and information and consultation.

The Working Time Directive is one of the most high-profile elements of EU-derived law affecting employment – before it was transposed into UK law, UK workers did not have a statutory right to paid annual holiday. The directive ensured that all workers should be entitled to at least 20 days of paid annual holiday, but the UK government increased this entitlement to 28 days including bank holidays. However, one of the other main provisions – that a worker’s working week would be limited to 48 hours – is subject to an opt out in the UK.

One of the most important areas of employment rights affected by European legislation is the equal treatment rights of what are often termed “atypical workers” in Brussels. This includes equal treatment for part-time workers, those on fixed-term contracts and temporary agency workers in terms of pay and basic conditions of employment. The latter came into force through the Temporary Agency Workers Directive, although the equal treatment provision regarding pay only applies to UK temporary agency workers after 13 weeks as opposed to the first day as stated in the Directive. It is likely that many UK workers who are agency workers or who work part-time in the public sector are directly affected by this legislation from the EU.

Typically, European law is initiated in Brussels through directives and, once agreed, transposed into national legislation across all of the member states. EU-derived law has been incorporated into UK law using a range of legal approaches including secondary legislation under the European Communities Act 1972 (for example TUPE) as well as through acts of Parliament (for example, the Equality Act).

OP posts:
LeaveTheRoundAbout · 13/06/2016 23:01

girl: yes people don't just believe it, but some in public life appear to be rewriting their own history and forgetting that British people can shape their own destiny:

I posted this Friday:
Read an article earlier re Pensions - Baroness Alltman claiming an EU directive of 2008 is protecting something that British people (and the likes of the Baroness) had campaigned for themselves and came to fruition in a British Pensions Act 2004.

British democracy affords a voice and a modus for tenacious campaigners ...

"The current debate over UK membership of the EU is producing no lack of hyperbole on either side. Crediting vaguely worded directives for the achievements of very specific UK measures made some years earlier must certainly be counted with such hyperbole.

The truth is that occupational pensions are protected because when peoples' lives and livelihoods are ruined, British democracy affords a voice and a modus for tenacious campaigners: campaigners like the noble Baroness used to be. "

Winterbiscuit · 13/06/2016 23:20

I don't trust Mr Gove one bit

Do you trust Merkel, Osborne, Blair, Major?

Which MEPs, EU Commissioners, Presidents, Judges or other EU representatives do you trust?

Winterbiscuit · 13/06/2016 23:21

BusStopBetty what exactly would you like people to predict, on either side? And how will these things be possible to predict?

MeMySonAndl · 13/06/2016 23:34

Or... Check the news, see the pound is already in its way down and start listening to the economists because the immigration is the least of our problems.

even if a escape goat is- always handy to have--

caroldecker · 14/06/2016 00:58

The pound has been at 1.4 and lower in 1985, 1993-1995, 2008 against the USD, and similar against the Euro. It goes up again because cheap GBP supports exports and brings money into the UK - look at when the UK left the ERM. this was and is the key argument against joining the Euro, flexible exchange rates are the key to economic prosperity.
Ask the Greeks and the Spanish.

MeMySonAndl · 14/06/2016 01:09

That was 30 years ago, while at the time it is low because people abroad are already loosing confidence in Britain staying in.

The US is already warning if a possible American recession if we go out, and I really don't imagine the EU staying as it is if we go. I think that it will start to disintegrate, and if it does... You can expect far more immigrants (albeit illegal), more economic problems and weaker security systems against terrorism/pesky neighbours.

AveEldon · 14/06/2016 16:08

If we stay the EU may still disintegrate, it just might take longer

OurBlanche · 14/06/2016 16:53

I am pondering Leave purely because of the changes in membership. When it was a group of more or less solvent/equal partners (albeit in a slightly Animal Farm manner) it was probably OK... but now there are a lot of less equal countries joining and, crassly put I appreciate, I fear my personal pound now having to pay for many more Euros.

What was a good reason, a shared market, 30 years ago, is no longer the apparent driving force behind the EU and, selfishly, I'd like to be able to see UK pounds benefitting the UK.

It does help that I don't beleive that in leaving we will lose all hope of equitable trade agreements ebng reaached between us and the rest of Europe. We will still be European, just not EU!

HOWEVER as no political party has been able to explain anything without resorting to ridiculous, fear inducing tripe, I doubt we will ever know which way we should have jumped.

bcwk1104 · 14/06/2016 21:53

'Again, we don't have to lose any rights we already have. Are you saying the government will scrap workers rights of we leave and that the only thing keeping them in place is the EU?'

I believe the answer is YES. If we leave the EU then a UK Government will be able to change UK law - hopefully, not likely to scrap employment protection laws but change them to make them more 'pro-business'. In the event of Brexit, politicians will want to make the UK look as attractive as possible as a place for business and investment (in particular from foreign investors) - since the UK will no longer be able to provide access into the EU, an alternative will be for the UK to have more 'employer friendly' policies than those of EU countries. Obviously, there are many other forms of 'carrots' to offer investors but this could certainly be one.

Winterbiscuit · 14/06/2016 23:21

If we leave the EU then a UK Government will be able to change UK law

Yes, that is the most compelling reason to vote Leave. A democracy with elected MPs who are accountable to us and can be voted out. Brexit is about deciding the long term future of our country here, shaping and adapting as we go. Very different to the EU which is following a pre-decided plan and is thus unreformable.

OurBlanche · 15/06/2016 07:49

If we leave the EU then a UK Government will be able to change UK law As Winterbiscuit said... anyone who thinks it is a good thing that the UK government and electorate must ask permission to change a law is arguing very well for the Brexit campaign Smile

SmallLegsOrSmallEggs · 15/06/2016 08:14

I love the idea of an escape goatGrin

Totally misses point of thread.

JudyCoolibar · 16/06/2016 09:29

hopefully, not likely to scrap employment protection laws

Oh, come on, they've made it pretty clear that this precisely what they would do. Maternity and disability rights would be amongst the most vulnerable.

bcwk1104 · 16/06/2016 10:34

JudyCoolibar - I was trying to show some vague faith in our politicians (probably misplaced) - you are right, all employment protection laws will be vulnerable in the effort to make the UK competitive against the EU. I would expect corporation tax to be lowered too (less money for the Treasury etc etc).

namechangeparents · 16/06/2016 13:23

Employment protection laws would definitely go (be watered down)

Some of the EU money saved would go to reducing taxes for big business

I very much doubt you'd see further investment in health and education unless we had a change of government colours too.

It would be nice if some of the money saved from the EU went into making tuition fees free but that won't happen.

BreakingDad77 · 16/06/2016 17:14

Its not fear when Priti Patel has come out saying we need to cut red tape like employment rights to make business more profitable.

To deal with europe in whatever shape or form, they will still expect things to be sold, processed, labled, etc in the same way. The only red tape to cut is employment rights.

caroldecker · 17/06/2016 00:53

Lower corporation tax rates does not mean less tax. Companies will locate high value functions/finance functions in low tax rate jurisdictions to pay less tax overall. There is a reason so many companies are in the Netherlands which do not have anything but an office there, or high worth employees in Switzerland.

Tomtomato · 27/06/2016 23:06

Before the referendum I wrote this post outlining the risks of Brexit to worker's rights which would particularly affect women. I took time out to write it my own time, because I felt it was important to warn people of the risks In the last days of the referendum the risks to workers' rights received more publicity, but many people chose to ignore the warning.

I received really unpleasant, rude comments from most of the people who replied. I was really upset by this. So I chose not to reply. Well now that the markets are falling and £ is falling and a recession is imminent perhaps it might be time those who weren't rude to me to be aware of those risks.'Scaremongering? ' sadly I don't think so.

OP posts:
VocalDuck · 27/06/2016 23:28

I think it is much too early and markets falling etc was always to be expected. Give it a little time and then reassess the situation because I think us leaving the EU is the right decision.

ssd · 27/06/2016 23:32

it was well written op but sadly the leave voters dont want to listen to reason

Winterbiscuit · 28/06/2016 00:23

A lot of people would like to see these protected, but most of us aren't in a position to carry that out. So going through the democratic process is the best way. I think the most positive thing to do at this stage is write to your MP with your concerns about womens rights and workers rights being upheld.

LineyReborn · 28/06/2016 00:30

OP, I hear you. I was talking about women's employment rights last week to a Leaver who did a kind of Hmm 'whatever' face.

Today, with the UK's triple A rating gone - an enviable rating which we'd had since 1978 - that Leaver is a lot more focussed on things like family income, housing affordability and future planning.

MariscallRoad · 09/07/2016 23:08

Anna After Brexit legislation can change in any way and we cannot predict how.

On Maternity pay: www.theguardian.com/careers/2016/may/24/what-would-leaving-eu-mean--employment-rights

On Discrimination: The EU framework directive on discrimination in 2000 significantly changed UK law, introducing new protected categories so employers cannot now discriminate based on age, sexual orientation or religion. The EA dates since October 2010. I ve used in several times since it went into effect.

On maternity leave: Nowadays, EU provisions for minimum holiday allowances and maternity and paternity rules have been adapted into British law. If Westminster wanted to cut national provisions below the standards set by the EU, it would not be allowed to do so as Britain would thereby violate its EU commitments. After Brexit it can do so.
www.theguardian.com/small-business-network/2016/may/25/brexit-annual-parental-leave-working-time-directive

On minimum wage: You cannot compare levels because the living costs and housing and other benefits are different. You cannot live with a min wage in London.

Corbyn has the right to change his mind.

Greece: I read Greek language and several papers on line . What do you mean? The taxes became higher in Greece. EU did not impose this. The distribution of income is more equitable, there is a state pension at last and a social benefit for unemployed and disabled. Pensionable age has been adjusted to 65 like in EU but is earlier that in Germany. Greece has huge defence costs that cause her financial hardship and had devoted recources of herself to help 1.2 million refugees. It is greatly assisted by programmes from EU - she would not survive without

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